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  1. #1
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Default Attn: Kenneth Jay or anyone with a Good Knowledge of VWC

    I have a few big questions when it comes to the Thorolf example in the VWC book for the 15:15 protocol. I'm planning on starting the 15:15 protocol today, and since this issue probably won't come up until the fourth week or so, I decided to ask about it now.

    How does Thorolf determine the percentage increase in snatch sets for each session? I'm confused on how this is determined.

    In the book the increases in sets seem like it's a repeating pattern, but then on the 6th session he decides to back off, does he do this because he feels fatigued on that particular day? Or is it an arbitrary backing off? After he backs off and then continues on with the seventh session what he was supposed to do on the sixth session, the percentages no longer follow the original pattern.

    Essentially, how do you determine volume cycling for the 15:15 protocol?

    My second question is, when he retests his cMVO2, he tests that now he can do 8 repetitions per set. Why does he decide to go supramaximal by doing 9 repetitions per set and cycling high and low volume days as opposed to simply going through the whole protocol again on 8 repetitions per set? Does he go supramaximal to break a plateau or something? In addition, how does he determine which days are going to be low volume versus high volume when he is doing the supramaximal sets? The first few sessions follows the Wednesday supramaximal trend, but when it hits sessions 10-12 on the graph, all three sessions in that week are dedicated to supramaximal. And when it is sessions 17-21, it seems that all of them are supramaximal as well. This breaks the pattern, and I'm confused.

    Basically, why does he decide to go supramaximal on his next 15:15 cycle? And within that supramaximal cycle, how does he decide which days are high volume or low volume?

  2. #2
    Oldboy is offline Senior Member
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    This confused me as well. I figured Thorolf's progression between sessions to be based on a matter of feel. When it comes to my own VO2 training, I don't decide how many sets I'm going to do outright, I just get snatching and listen to my body's feedback. Funny enough, a "hard, light, medium" approach for my three sessions has been working nicely.

    As for the supramaximal snatching, I'm not entirely sure. It seems like it's a workout devoted to help build your threshold and move through the 15:15 quicker than the first time.
    Raw Power, More than Soul

  3. #3
    Kenneth Jay is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ideal Paradigm View Post
    I have a few big questions when it comes to the Thorolf example in the VWC book for the 15:15 protocol. I'm planning on starting the 15:15 protocol today, and since this issue probably won't come up until the fourth week or so, I decided to ask about it now.

    How does Thorolf determine the percentage increase in snatch sets for each session? I'm confused on how this is determined.

    In the book the increases in sets seem like it's a repeating pattern, but then on the 6th session he decides to back off, does he do this because he feels fatigued on that particular day? Or is it an arbitrary backing off? After he backs off and then continues on with the seventh session what he was supposed to do on the sixth session, the percentages no longer follow the original pattern.

    Essentially, how do you determine volume cycling for the 15:15 protocol?

    My second question is, when he retests his cMVO2, he tests that now he can do 8 repetitions per set. Why does he decide to go supramaximal by doing 9 repetitions per set and cycling high and low volume days as opposed to simply going through the whole protocol again on 8 repetitions per set? Does he go supramaximal to break a plateau or something? In addition, how does he determine which days are going to be low volume versus high volume when he is doing the supramaximal sets? The first few sessions follows the Wednesday supramaximal trend, but when it hits sessions 10-12 on the graph, all three sessions in that week are dedicated to supramaximal. And when it is sessions 17-21, it seems that all of them are supramaximal as well. This breaks the pattern, and I'm confused.

    Basically, why does he decide to go supramaximal on his next 15:15 cycle? And within that supramaximal cycle, how does he decide which days are high volume or low volume?
    To answer your questions:

    1) there is a repeating pattern in the increase in volume but that is really not important and that is why I dont go into greater details explaining it. the basic Idea is to push forward on every session doning more than last session BUT keeping a very close eye on accumulated fatigue and then backing off. It can be considered as somewhat freestyling the fitness/fatigue theory by Zatsiorsky. VWC requires that you have spent some time with a kettlebell (like PM and ROP) and are in tune with your body and knows when to back off...
    Hope it makes sense...

    2) the reason for going supramaximal the second time around on the 15:15 on one session is to further prepare for whats to come in the 36:36 but also especially in the BOOST. It isn't a necessity but just a tweak. It also demonstrates that as long you dont drop your cadence below what equals the fifth minute of the cMVO2 you can manipulate intensity in the supramaximal levels. By this I wanted to illustrate to the extremely advanced user that even though the VWC regime seems pretty fixed it still has a lot of flexibility.

    hope this helps..

    /KJ
    Keep Moving Forward!
    Kenneth Jay
    MSc. Human Physiology, PhD(c) Neurophysiology, Z-Health Master Trainer

    make sure to check out my blog: neurosig

    you can also visit my website kennethjay.dk or connect with me on facebook!

    Download my most recent peer reviewed published study on kettlebells!
    more studies in progress!

  4. #4
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Jay View Post
    To answer your questions:

    1) there is a repeating pattern in the increase in volume but that is really not important and that is why I dont go into greater details explaining it. the basic Idea is to push forward on every session doning more than last session BUT keeping a very close eye on accumulated fatigue and then backing off. It can be considered as somewhat freestyling the fitness/fatigue theory by Zatsiorsky. VWC requires that you have spent some time with a kettlebell (like PM and ROP) and are in tune with your body and knows when to back off...
    Hope it makes sense...

    2) the reason for going supramaximal the second time around on the 15:15 on one session is to further prepare for whats to come in the 36:36 but also especially in the BOOST. It isn't a necessity but just a tweak. It also demonstrates that as long you dont drop your cadence below what equals the fifth minute of the cMVO2 you can manipulate intensity in the supramaximal levels. By this I wanted to illustrate to the extremely advanced user that even though the VWC regime seems pretty fixed it still has a lot of flexibility.

    hope this helps..

    /KJ
    1. Oh, I see. Thank you for clearing that up.

    2. I understood that part where it says in the book that it is okay to go above 100% of Max VO2, but never below it (for the purposes of increasing Max VO2). The only thing that I didn't understand was that on the graph it says that Thorolf will commence supramaximal sets on Wednesdays. The trend holds true until session 10-12 and session 16-21. Since it is flexible, which method would you recommend? Working 15:15 adding one rep to the sets at a time, or doing what Thorolf did and having a supramaximal/maximal cycle? Or is this goal dependent (getting there faster vs. getting there slower or some other goal)?

  5. #5
    Kenneth Jay is offline Senior Member
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    Since it is flexible, which method would you recommend? Working 15:15 adding one rep to the sets at a time, or doing what Thorolf did and having a supramaximal/maximal cycle?
    If you have significant experience with the 15:15 going back and fourt between a supramax and maximal sessions is a good option. dont consider this unless you can get 80 sets of 8 reps with the 16kg.

    /KJ
    Keep Moving Forward!
    Kenneth Jay
    MSc. Human Physiology, PhD(c) Neurophysiology, Z-Health Master Trainer

    make sure to check out my blog: neurosig

    you can also visit my website kennethjay.dk or connect with me on facebook!

    Download my most recent peer reviewed published study on kettlebells!
    more studies in progress!

  6. #6
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Jay View Post
    If you have significant experience with the 15:15 going back and fourt between a supramax and maximal sessions is a good option. dont consider this unless you can get 80 sets of 8 reps with the 16kg.

    /KJ
    kj, what does "phd in results" mean?

    does that mean you finished your masters without telling us and are into your PhD now? way to go!

    thanks,

    mc
    mc, phd, cscs,
    rkc ii, ck-fms, z-health master trainer, precision nutrition level 1
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    coaching/assessments in person and via web cam - meditatus radix/caveat emptor (i.e. "i'm not young enough to know everything" - o.wilde)

  7. #7
    Atl
    Atl is offline Senior Member
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    I can answer that. It is similar to a phd in "kick-ass".

  8. #8
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atl View Post
    I can answer that. It is similar to a phd in "kick-ass".
    That's how I read it, but it would be pretty awesome if he was moving on to his Ph.D

  9. #9
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Jay View Post
    If you have significant experience with the 15:15 going back and fourt between a supramax and maximal sessions is a good option. dont consider this unless you can get 80 sets of 8 reps with the 16kg.

    /KJ
    Another question:

    When you run the MSLaP protocol simultaneously with the 15:15 protocol, the book says that if you're doing four sessions of VWC a week, that you should do the MSLaP every other session. And if you're doing VWC three times a week, do the MSLaP in one session.

    So I'm confused between these two situations:

    Situation 1:

    Monday - 15:15 Protocol

    Wednesday - MSLaP Protocol and 15:15 Protocol

    Friday - 15:15 Protocol

    Situation 2:

    Monday - 15:15 Protocol

    Wednesday - MSLaP Protocol

    Friday - 15:15 Protocol

    When it says to do the MSLaP in one session if you're doing three VWC sessions a week, does that mean MSLaP replaces the 15:15 for that day, or you do both on that day? Which situation is correct? If it is situation 1, then which do you do first, 15:15 or MSLaP?

  10. #10
    Kenneth Jay is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ideal Paradigm View Post
    Another question:

    When you run the MSLaP protocol simultaneously with the 15:15 protocol, the book says that if you're doing four sessions of VWC a week, that you should do the MSLaP every other session. And if you're doing VWC three times a week, do the MSLaP in one session.

    So I'm confused between these two situations:

    Situation 1:

    Monday - 15:15 Protocol

    Wednesday - MSLaP Protocol and 15:15 Protocol

    Friday - 15:15 Protocol

    Situation 2:

    Monday - 15:15 Protocol

    Wednesday - MSLaP Protocol

    Friday - 15:15 Protocol

    When it says to do the MSLaP in one session if you're doing three VWC sessions a week, does that mean MSLaP replaces the 15:15 for that day, or you do both on that day? Which situation is correct? If it is situation 1, then which do you do first, 15:15 or MSLaP?
    of the two situations you have listed the 2nd is correct.

    /KJ
    Keep Moving Forward!
    Kenneth Jay
    MSc. Human Physiology, PhD(c) Neurophysiology, Z-Health Master Trainer

    make sure to check out my blog: neurosig

    you can also visit my website kennethjay.dk or connect with me on facebook!

    Download my most recent peer reviewed published study on kettlebells!
    more studies in progress!

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