I don't feel my lats when doing pull-ups

[RyanH]

Originally Posted by SteveFreides

Comrade avilezj, concentrate on pulling your elbows to your sides. You will be using your lats, whether you feel them or not.

This is what worked for me, concentrating on pushing the elbows down and not "pulling with the arms". Same works for rows (pushing elbows back). To get a feel, try having someone put their hands under your elbows while you stand or sit and push down while they resist you.

Another option is touch training. Have someone put their hands on your lats while you do the pullups/chins (not to help, but to make you more aware of the lats contribution to the movement).

[mc]

Originally Posted by 0311bravo

MC, not to hijack your comment, but it seems that you kind of took off and ran with something that wasn't there. He never asked about feeling them in 'isolation', and I think asking how to activate the lats during a pull up is a perfectly reasonable question.

hmm, i suppose if you're aksing to feel a specific muscle group during a movement that invovles many muscles, that's isolating the muscle in your awareness is it not? that's certianly how i meant it. nor did i mean to suggest it was unreasonable, but what' the point? there is a point or you wouldn't think it reasonable?

and if that's how we're understanding each other,
i ask again, why? why want to "feel the lats" in particular in a move?

it seems that's only important if you don't have a sense of how they're operating in a move - hence the suggestion to check in and see a) do you know how the muscle operates so you can visualize it and b) can you fire it off the bar so you know what to "feel" for on the bar.

and then again, why?
mc

[Shank]

The lats are the prime movers. If you were squatting and didn't feel your glutes firing you would be robbing yourself of a Lot of power. Same thing.

[schnieder]

you can't really feel the lats unless you're corkscrewing, and that really only be done when your elbows are close to your torso, i.e. arms aren't over your head. IMO, its important to get that lat feeling when you're doing MPs and pushups and probably rows although i never do them. similarly you want to feel your glutes intensely when doing pistols. you want to feel the most important, biggest muscles of the movement whenever possible IMO by both using them properly and having an intense mind focus on them because that is where the power and safety of the movement radiate from.

so since you can't corkscrew when doing pullups (try corkscrewing with your arms over your head, its not the same. not to mention the bar keeps your hands fixed which inhibits corkscrewing), you are "attempting" to corkscrew, which is what these guys who are good at pullups speak of re: the elbows. with pullups, i think you know the lat is working not by feeling it but from the effects...i.e. pulling up high and strong, bar to the chest.

[0311bravo]

Originally Posted by Shank

The lats are the prime movers. If you were squatting and didn't feel your glutes firing you would be robbing yourself of a Lot of power. Same thing.

That's it. Even more so than feeling them during the event you should be feeling them the next day if you're truly engaging them. When I hit a lot of pull ups correctly my lats are screaming the next day.

[mc]

Originally Posted by 0311bravo

That's it. Even more so than feeling them during the event you should be feeling them the next day if you're truly engaging them. When I hit a lot of pull ups correctly my lats are screaming the next day.

THere's a difference between DOMS and being aware of a muscle group, surely?

And guys, i appreciate your replies, but disagree that you have to focus on feeling a muscle to get good power or form. Perhaps when learning a move, but not once you're well practiced.

Imagine a sport where you want to move efficiently - are you thinking about feeling your lats when reaching for a basketball thrown to you and then shooting it?

Likewise, in GS for example, doing a long cylce, i'm not really thinking about checking in with my lats. or for that matter going for a 1RM, are you thinking about feeling your glutes? maybe when you're new at it and getting used to it, but when you're *doing* it?

This is a *small* point, but my sense is that having to be conscious of whether or not a muscle is operating is a check only if there's an issue with the movement. After that, when the move is well grooved and practiced, what would the role of that awareness be?

I just ask you to consider that perspective.

ta

mc

[Shank]

Of course if you are already at the top of your game in performing a movement then it will be automatic. But in this case, he is not feeling his lats, and that is of some concern--he should do what he can to build that mind-body connection. You are absolutely right that in an experienced lifter/athlete it should be automatic and movement-focused rather than muscle focused. In this case, however, I think some activation work would not only be beneficial, but necessary.

[0311bravo]

Originally Posted by mc

And guys, i appreciate your replies, but disagree that you have to focus on feeling a muscle to get good power or form. Perhaps when learning a move, but not once you're well practiced.

You just answered your own question. He is learning the move.

Would you agree that if a muscle is sore it is because it was used? Such as in... a pulll up?
MC, I really enjoy your posts and have found your blog to be very informative and I learn a lot from each post. In this case I think you may unintentionally be taking something fairly simple and making it incredibly complicated.

[mc]

Originally Posted by 0311bravo

You just answered your own question. He is learning the move.

Would you agree that if a muscle is sore it is because it was used? Such as in... a pulll up?
MC, I really enjoy your posts and have found your blog to be very informative and I learn a lot from each post. In this case I think you may unintentionally be taking something fairly simple and making it incredibly complicated.

Thank you jordan.

context is everything, is it not?

i didn't want to assume this was someone "learning" a move as opposed to someone who does 100 a week and just heard about "Feeling your lats" and has never thought about it.

so just to be explicit - you're agreeing that "feeling" a muscle may only be of interest in a learning phase?

if so, my point/query is still why? if the movement is fine, who cares?

this question has been breaking orthodoxy for me - i have been very focused heretofore on cuing folks learning the swing to "feel their lats" and on their knowing how to fire their lats in that context.

but if their shoulder work is fine, and their swing fine, why bother?

we still don't know if our poster is a neophyte or old hand at pull ups.

and again, would not a cue to focus on the move eg "pull your elbows down" be more meaningful than how to feel the lat - especially if unaware of how the lat actually acts?

Again these are questions i'm exploring in my own teaching practice, and so far i haven't heard a good reason that becoming aware of where a muscle is fired is better or more reasonable than focus on a movement.

It's a a real question. And i'm moving away from muscle focus especially without knowing the action of the muscle - and its origins/insertions else what are we visualizing/feeling? what's its role in the move.

so perhaps it will all come back to something simple and elegant, but right now i'm unpacking and looking at all the bits to better refine my own strategies.

and i admire all the teaching you've done, jordan. you give a lot, and that's special.

mc

[Steve W.]

Originally Posted by mc

THere's a difference between DOMS and being aware of a muscle group, surely?

And guys, i appreciate your replies, but disagree that you have to focus on feeling a muscle to get good power or form. Perhaps when learning a move, but not once you're well practiced.

Imagine a sport where you want to move efficiently - are you thinking about feeling your lats when reaching for a basketball thrown to you and then shooting it?

Likewise, in GS for example, doing a long cylce, i'm not really thinking about checking in with my lats. or for that matter going for a 1RM, are you thinking about feeling your glutes? maybe when you're new at it and getting used to it, but when you're *doing* it?

This is a *small* point, but my sense is that having to be conscious of whether or not a muscle is operating is a check only if there's an issue with the movement. After that, when the move is well grooved and practiced, what would the role of that awareness be?

I just ask you to consider that perspective.

ta

mc

Not to pile on, but even the most skilled and accomplished athletes continually go through conscious form checks and mechanical cues, even (or especially) during the heat of competition.

Sure, the ideal is to achieve a flow state where everything happens correctly without conscious thought, but that flow state is elusive and sporadic even for the best.

When I go for a 1 RM, I surely do review a set of cues, and one of the cues I consciously use DURING a lift to grind through a sticking point is to focus on the glutes

I interpreted the OP to be asking about activating his lats more, rather than just pulling with his arms (an assumption, but one based on a common problem).

By the way, one of the epiphanies for me at the RKC cert was the power of "tough love" palpation to help identify and plug up tension leakages. So the OP may want to have a partner poke him in the lats while he does his pullups.