Questions about Kenneth Jay's call on VO2 max

[MichaelScott]

During the call Kenneth mentioned that VO2 max is best reached by using some sort of "outside resistance" instead of running or biking. He said that he found that Kettlebells and rowing could help increase VO2.

My questions would be:

1) Is this true of all body weight exercises? I normally feel pretty fricking smoked after a 20 minute interval set of burpees. What about bodyweight exercises such as Gymnastics circles on the pommel horse?

2) What about sledge hammer work or other weight exercises that are not kettlebell related? has anyone attempted to increase VO2 max with those methods?

 

[Kenneth Jay]

During the call Kenneth mentioned that VO2 max is best reached by using some sort of "outside resistance" instead of running or biking. He said that he found that Kettlebells and rowing could help increase VO2.

My questions would be:

1) Is this true of all body weight exercises? I normally feel pretty fricking smoked after a 20 minute interval set of burpees. What about bodyweight exercises such as Gymnastics circles on the pommel horse?

2) What about sledge hammer work or other weight exercises that are not kettlebell related? has anyone attempted to increase VO2 max with those methods?

Ad 1: sure you can feel smoked but that does not necessarily have anything to do with your MVO2.

Ad 2: I can pretty much tell you with a high level of certainty that it will not work at leaat not as good as kb snatches and there are multiple reasons for that. that of course does not mean sledgehammer work is worthless.

KJ from AZ

OUT

 

[MichaelScott]

Ad 1: sure you can feel smoked but that does not necessarily have anything to do with your MVO2.

Ad 2: I can pretty much tell you with a high level of certainty that it will not work at leaat not as good as kb snatches and there are multiple reasons for that. that of course does not mean sledgehammer work is worthless.

KJ from AZ

OUT

Awesome. Thanks for the quick reply Kenneth!

 

[MD52]

But isn't mVO2 specific to the exercise being done? For example distance runners that have high mVO2 results while running test lower on a bike or in a swim flume, bikers test higher on a bike and swimmers when swimming. Part of the training effect to improve mVO2 is improving the oxygen delivery system which can carry over between sports but the other part is improving the ability of the muscles to use the oxygen. The changes that take place within the muscle are specific to the muscle being used and do not necessarily carry over between sports or different forms of exercise.

Just curious what your research has shown related to how the mVO2 developed in your VWC program carries over to other things like swimming.

 

[DanMartin]

The looking for an alternative means to improve VO2 Max other than the kettlebell snatch fascinates me. Is it to prove something esoteric or does using a kettlebell in the fashion recommended by KJ scare people.

 

[Emby]

The looking for an alternative means to improve VO2 Max other than the kettlebell snatch fascinates me. Is it to prove something esoteric or does using a kettlebell in the fashion recommended by KJ scare people.

I think the problem is that people dont know what alternatives there are to Snatches.

Which approach is best for your sport? Depends on your sport. Of course the heart and lungs benefit carries over to pretty much everything but the difference is which muscles you predominantly use to stimulate this response. E.g. the most appropriate way for a cyclist to do Mvo2 training is on the bike itself.

'Your body gets better at exactly what it does'

 

[SoGun]

After spending the weekend in Atlanta with Sara, Kenneth,and David, I can tell you just do what Kenneth Jay says. He can tell you whys and where fores but it is easier to just do the snatches like he says.

 

[gripfreak]

I'm skeptical that only a kb and a rowing machine can improve vo2 max. I'm not arguing that they might not be the optimal method but to say that Burpees, running, Barbell powercleans etc. can't improve vo2 max I guess I still don't grasp. Again not a knock on The prescibed methods because I have no doubt they work......

 

[geoplaten]

I don't believe KJ said only kb and rowing machines can improve vo2, he said they work well, better than many other things.

 

[gripfreak]

He did say it wont work, at least not as well as kb snatches....So he did imply it may not work at all. Again this isn't a knock on kb snatches and I can't wait to get the book and try the methods but there are a lot of people without access to kb's or are training large groups and using kb's isn't feasable or maybe snatches cause rotator discomfort etc. What are some "decent" alternatives to the kb and/or rowing is what I'm curious about.

 

[Emby]

I am very pro kettlebells and they are a 'one stop shop' for many things but there are many ways to increase VO2 - Running, cycling, rowing + more. The key is HOW you run, cycle, row etc to stimulate the required cardiovascular response for increasing VO2.

Google programmes for increasing VO2 using a specific tool (Bike, running etc) and there are plenty of methods out there which work just as well and have done for years. There are plenty of athletes and average joe's out there who will have great VO2 and have never heard of kettlebells: Take the following VO2 scores - None of these guys (Elite athletes) did VW KB training to get these elite scores as these scores were achieved well before KB VO2 training came out. Im just trying to get a bit of a balance here!

Bjorn Daehlie Cross country skier 90.0 ml/kg/min
Miguel Indurain Cyclist (winner of Tour de France) 88.0 ml/kg/min
John Ngugi 5 times world cross country champ 85.0 ml/kg/min
Dave Bedford 10km World Record holder 85.0 ml/kg/min
Steve Prefontaine 1 mile in 3:54. 84.4 ml/kg/min
Lance Armstrong 84 ml/kg/min
Sebastian Coe In 1979 scored 77 ml/kg/min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0e1yaMIM08

To put the above in perspective: Anything above 45 ml/kg/min for a male in their 30's is excellent, and I do mean excellent.

Runners, Cyclists, Skiers, and plenty more sport disciplines are riddled with athletes who have unbeleviable scores like the above athletes

There are plenty of other ways other than KB's.

I think people are worrying too much. At the end of the day if you do any good CV training it will inevitably improve your VO2.

 

[Phillip Spearo]

Improving Snatch Numbers

I have heard of great results using Mr. Jay's methods.

From my experience with running and kettlebells, I respond best to longer intervals or tempo work. Four minutes to six minutes of continuous snatches with a 16kg at about 20-25 reps per minute, 3X a week netted me 119 (24KG) in the TSC. Everyone will respond differently to different methods - all I know is that I got pretty good results with just about 15 minutes a week.

 

[Kenneth Jay]

I NEVER said that only kb snatches and rowing improves VO2max. If that was the case then why are tour de France competitors, cross country skiiers, runners the ones with the highest VO2max?.

What I said was that these differs from the stimulation you get rowing or doing kb snatches. When looking at the adaptations of the heart things are very different in terms of the anatomy of the adapted heart muscle.

What it all comes down to is to stimulate the heart concentrically and eccentrically (hypertrophy-wise) and you get BOTH when doing kb snatches (and rowing- jury is still out on cross country skiiers but they may very well fit into that category as well)

/KJ

from AZ

OUT

 

[Emby]

I NEVER said that only kb snatches and rowing improves VO2max. If that was the case then why are tour de France competitors, cross country skiiers, runners the ones with the highest VO2max?.

Case closed.

KJ Have you seen any studies in regards to cross country skiers? I have seen that across the board they seem to have the highest VO2 numbers which is amazing. It would be interesting to hear how you might think that particular movement would stimulate the response required for improving VO2. Although the jury is still out (No studies confirming it) I think its clear to see that this particular discipline is bang on for VO2.

I know you cant know for sure but I would like to hear what you think what would be going on when doing this activity + how effective would a cross training machine in a gym be that mimicks the movement?
Thanks

Martin

 

[faizalenu]

I am very pro kettlebells and they are a 'one stop shop' for many things but there are many ways to increase VO2 - Running, cycling, rowing + more. The key is HOW you run, cycle, row etc to stimulate the required cardiovascular response for increasing VO2.

Runners, Cyclists, Skiers, and plenty more sport disciplines are riddled with athletes who have unbeleviable scores like the above athletes

There are plenty of other ways other than KB's.

I think people are worrying too much. At the end of the day if you do any good CV training it will inevitably improve your VO2.

True, but you have to remember that these athletes got their MaxVO2 from the sports that they play. Because they are good at/skilled at running/cycling/whatever -- it can work for them. But not so much for others. I have a client that weighs 300 lbs, do you think that he would be able to run fast enough without killing his joints and back to have effective MaxVO2 workouts running. Heck no, but with external resistance he can and without impact on the joints.

It is all about using the best tool for the job, and that depends on the client. The trainer that does one-size fits all approach might as well just stay at Bally's and teach everyone walking lunges.

 

[gripfreak]

I will accept that the snatch is idea for working the heart eccentrically and concentrically but I'm curious about what other methods of resistance would work albeit not optimally. I would guess Burpees, clean and presses etc. ?

Kenneth also thanks for taking the time to answer questions and clear up confusions, its appreciated.

 

[Nakielski]

quotes from masterskier.com

Martin this might interest you

"Physiologists estimate that when skating uphill your upper body does 60-70% of the work. In classic skiing, the upper body/lower body workload ratio is a bit more balanced when diagonal striding uphill but the upper body carries the burden almost exclusively when the terrain flattens out and you double pole."

"Research from Norway has indicated significantly higher winter VO2max values relative to summer values in skiers.

Research conducted at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Lake Placid suggests that a lack of ski-specific training may result in lower VO2max values during roller skiing versus running even in well-trained subjects."

All this talk of skiing makes me think snow, ahhh, i can't wait.

Free Your Heel.

John

 

[Emby]

Thanks john!

That's very interesting.

Faizalenu, yes I couldn't agree with that more. There are many who would be unable to stimulate that rsponse due to their physical attributes but rowing is still non impact on the joints. I think the most important thing is that whatever your size, you need to build up a base level of fitness to be able to continue long enough to be able to stimulate a proper vo2 response in your training. If you can only row for 30 seconds before getting nakered then you need to get base fitness first before doing any vo2 specific work.

It would be interesting to hear peoples views on the cross trainer you see in the gym which mimicks the cross country skier movement. This is also no impact on joints a could feasibly be used for stimulating vo2?

 

[sicklameandlazy]

The book was very clear in pointing out the internal workings of the "why" snatching was ideal exercise for this protocol.

ATL said that this program will not make you a better runner, but it will give you a superhuman work capacity.

I am almost finished with my 80 sets of 8, it took me an embarasingly long time to get here, but now I can't wait to start ETK with 24Kg, and then with 32 Kg.

It is a great tool for what it's meant to do.

 

[cearball]

Bumping this thread as i have a query.

Couldbnt find the answer in FAQ or by searching.

The 80 sets were aiming for in VWC are these 80 work sets, so 160 lots of 15 seconds, or 40 work sets, which would be 80 lots of 15 seconds.

I am assuming 80 work sets. so 160 total lots of 15 seconds.

Thanks