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  1. #1
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    Talking happy happy happy with our fat - sort of

    as a complement to the recent threads on thinness and exercise, here's something from the other side of the fence.

    what if you're happy with your weight? but what if happiness with weight has actually gone up over a pretty good period, along with super sizing (as described in the set point theory kybosh article last week - look at how plate size and serving size has gone up!)

    Take that again set point theory!

    it seems we're fatter culturally and seemingly getting more ok with that (while concurrently being more distressed, depressed and lethargic).

    Fun Reading! Hope you'll check it out at b2d

    the point here: while all last week we argued about the primacy of diet and the secondariness of exercise, there's one more variable to take into account habit - or mort particularly habituated responses to homeostatic signals of stress and satiety.

    This piece is a warm up

    best

    mc
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  2. #2
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    Default not single factor

    ok
    and in a rather take that to gary taubes exercise makes you hungrier
    yes and no:

    Proc Nutr Soc. 2008 Feb;67(1):28-41.
    Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Effects of exercise and restrained eating behaviour on appetite control.

    Martins C, Robertson MD, Morgan LM.

    Division of Nutrition, Dietetics and Food Sciences, Faculty of Biomedical and Molecular Sciences, University of Surrey, Guildford GU2 7XH, UK. C.Martins@surrey.ac.uk

    Obesity is a global epidemic; increased consumption of energy-dense food and reduced physical activity levels are likely to be the main drivers. Previous cross-sectional research has shown that sedentary males, unlike their active counterparts, are unable to compensate for previous energy intake (EI). Using a longitudinal design a 6-week exercise intervention was found to improve short-term appetite control, leading to a more 'sensitive' eating behaviour in response to previous EI, both acutely at a test meal and for the next 24 h. Although the mechanisms whereby acute and chronic exercise improves short-term appetite remain unknown, post-ingestive satiety peptides are likely to be involved. Acute exercise was found to increase postprandial levels of polypeptide YY, glucagon-like peptide-1 and pancreatic polypeptide but to have no impact on ghrelin, suggesting that exercise can trigger physiological changes in satiety hormone secretion that could help in appetite control and weight maintenance. In the context of an increased availability of highly-palatable food, dietary restraint may be increasingly important. Although restraint has been associated with abnormal eating behaviour, in the laboratory no counter-regulation was found in restrained eaters when presented with a buffet meal 60 min after a high-energy preload or when a pasta-meal was presented 3 h after preloading. Although restraint was not found to impact on polypeptide YY or TAG, lower postprandial glucose and insulin plasma levels were observed in restrained eaters, together with increased feelings of fullness. In conclusion, short-term appetite control seems to be favourably modified by exercise, while the impact of restraint on appetite seems to be more complex.
    complex complex complex

    not single factor.

    at the end of the article on getting happier with fatter, there's a reference to recent work that the diet/exercise debate is kinda missing the more pressing issue of why we eat - not just habit, but how habit is tied to homeostatis - like that pointed to above

    see ghrelin is the hunger cue - we get it when we're hungy. but it's trainable.
    likewise the cue for polypeptide YY - is a morning cue for carbs; later in the day ghrelin cues up a craving for fats/protein.

    er it's so cool. we're so wired. it's so just not about the right diet or the right weight routine. not single factor stuff.

    and that sorta makes sense. we're very complicated we can just about get the high level stuff right - like eat less; move more - plant sping' harvest fall - but the details can be challenging.

    nite from the uk all
    mc
    mc, phd, cscs,
    rkc ii, ck-fms, z-health master trainer, precision nutrition level 1
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  3. #3
    Adam T Glass, RKC is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    MC

    I think the path of least resistance rules all. Int he modern western world, It is easier to gain weight than lose it, and its easier to say I'm OK with this and do nothing.

    Not only is being fat "no bodies fault", but its also acceptable for our children to be fat (we are a big family/big boned/large framed blah, i hear it daily). I am hard pressed to used Fat when Obese sounds accurate more often than not.

    The greatest joke in the history of the world is happening right here, right now in our generation: For thousands of years hunger and famine destroyed civilizations and was feared above all, save disease. Now we are eating ourselves to death. As tremendous numbers of people starve to death in Africa right now, the western media works very hard to portray the average American who is 40-100lbs overweight as "Normal" who should be happy they have outgrown their clothes three times in a decade. Happy! that they have diabetes and are only 30 something. Happy!!! because that new diet is coming out next week! You now, the one were you only eat cake and drink prune juice.

    I have no answers that are PC and my truthful answers are best left unsaid. I only hope every person takes responsibility for themself to at least keep their kids healthy until they are old enough to make a choice instead of forcing them to clean their plate or feeding them another happy meal.

  4. #4
    NonStop is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam T Glass, RKC View Post
    MC

    I think the path of least resistance rules all. Int he modern western world, It is easier to gain weight than lose it, and its easier to say I'm OK with this and do nothing.

    Not only is being fat "no bodies fault", but its also acceptable for our children to be fat (we are a big family/big boned/large framed blah, i hear it daily). I am hard pressed to used Fat when Obese sounds accurate more often than not.

    The greatest joke in the history of the world is happening right here, right now in our generation: For thousands of years hunger and famine destroyed civilizations and was feared above all, save disease. Now we are eating ourselves to death. As tremendous numbers of people starve to death in Africa right now, the western media works very hard to portray the average American who is 40-100lbs overweight as "Normal" who should be happy they have outgrown their clothes three times in a decade. Happy! that they have diabetes and are only 30 something. Happy!!! because that new diet is coming out next week! You now, the one were you only eat cake and drink prune juice.

    I have no answers that are PC and my truthful answers are best left unsaid. I only hope every person takes responsibility for themself to at least keep their kids healthy until they are old enough to make a choice instead of forcing them to clean their plate or feeding them another happy meal.
    Ditto. The western world generally makes me sick. Personally would love to hear your un-PC views. I've heard this from celebs interested in agrticulture, that rationing of a sought should be brought back. I agree, I think such rules should apply when other people are dying, and that bad foods should be severely rationed, especially for children. You can't really rely on most parents, as evidenced by the increase of obesity amongst children (both UK where I live and US).

  5. #5
    Philip Davis, RKC is offline Senior Member
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    Default I get it.......but it's still dumb

    I have friends and family members that have fell into this trap of acceptance and complancency. Their argument is, "Well, I'm happy". They are happy in their spiritual life, marriage, job, etc. and they don't see the big deal about being 50+ pounds overweight.

    I get it. I understand that everybody in the world isn't going to be like me. Not everybody cares if they can get 250 reps in the SSST. Not everyone is concerned if they can press the Beast while staying under 180 pounds or can push their car for a mile. Most people that are into "fitness" just want to be generally in shape and they will eat apple pie and ice cream every night because it's a comfort food and it makes them happy. Who cares if you haven't seen your feet for 10 years because your wife still loves you.

    My problem is that my friends and family that are overweight TRULY don't realize how dangerous it is. They're shaving years off of their life. They might as well smoke or drink a case of beer a day, it's having the same effect on their bodies. I'm glad they're happy but their health and quality of life is suffering because they/we have come to accept heavier people as being normal.

    What used to be taboo in this country is now everyday life and fat people are no exception. Booty shorts were unheard of the 1930s, vulgar language was never aired on television or radio in the 1950s, teen pregnancy used to be a big deal in the 1970s.....and now if you're not fat and lazy you're turning into the minority and people look at you like you're on drugs if you're seen actually doing something productive like sled dragging or tossing around a sandbag.

    My kid's generation is the first to be expected to NOT outlive me. This is what our culture has produced and it's very sad. Does anybody have that quote from JFK back in the 1960s? I think it was posted on this Forum before. Basically it brought up the fact that kids are getting lazier, less active and eating crappier food and we need to turn it around before our nation becomes a bunch of slobs. Apparrantly nobody listened. Good topic.

    Philip

  6. #6
    DrJAG2 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonStop View Post
    Ditto. The western world generally makes me sick. Personally would love to hear your un-PC views. I've heard this from celebs interested in agrticulture, that rationing of a sought should be brought back. I agree, I think such rules should apply when other people are dying, and that bad foods should be severely rationed, especially for children. You can't really rely on most parents, as evidenced by the increase of obesity amongst children (both UK where I live and US).
    I hope you're kidding. My family fled a government like you describe. I'd rather have the choice to be fat and stupid than be forced into starvation. Believe me, the Soviets did a good job of this (government-led starvation).

    Life is about choices and personal responsibility. Hopefully you make good choices, but if you don't, it's nobody's fault but yours.

    OBTW, starvation in Africa is not due to lack of food or the ability to grow it. It certainly is not about the lack of resources. Tanzania is one of the most resource-rich countries on earth. Hong Kong has no natural resources. One country is starving, the other one isn't. Zimbabwe used to feed half of Africa. No more.

    Back to fat.......if you get your kids off their butts and feed them halfway decent diets, they won't get fat. You don't need studies by phds and such to figure that one out. Get the kids a bike instead of a NoFriendo game system (full disclosure: my 11 year old has a Nintendo DSi that he bought with the money from all the lawns he mowed in the heat this Summer because Daddy doesn't do dependency - he also swims and plays baseball 6 months of the year). Put them on a team. Make them cut the lawn and spread mulch (my boys spent 2 hours mulching the back yard gardens on Saturday for no pay other than a bed and three meals). Make them walk the dog a mile every day. One of the problems is that many parents are so wrapped up in their lives that they don't take the time to take care of themselves and set the example, and they don't take the time to spend with the kids moving.

  7. #7
    BlackBeltMedic is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Adam, I agree. As far as your less-than-PC approach, I seriously believe that a great many people today need to be told the cold, harsh truth without any sympathy - and there's a sh**load of 'em out there. There's always going to people out there that need a little more of a push than others and that's fine. Genetics can be a hurdle and I get that too. Not everyone has the DNA to look like the personification of fitness. That does NOT mean that they cannot BE healthy and fit, though.

    It just takes a little discipline and will power to get started and from there it becomes habit. It becomes easy. It's sad and frustrating that so many people see making general health and well being as such an inconvenience. Why take a few extra minutes to make a balanced, home cooked meal (seriously, it's not that hard at all) when you can get a greaseburger at from the nearest fast food joint - especially when you don't even have to get out of the car to get it? Aaaaaarrrrggghh.

    I've always been active but my dietary policies in the past didn't always represent the best of choices. By and large, rarely did they do so. I made the change, however, and am glad I did. Seriously, it's not difficult to buy produce and not cupcakes. Tea, milk or water and not soda or beer. Fresh, lean meat and not fast food. Go out for a walk or bike ride (something, anything) instead of watching hour number 14 of American Idol or whatever other horrible reality TV shows are on this week. Granted, I only need to cook for myself but creating balanced, home cooked meals really is not a difficult or all that time consuming of a task. It's also cheaper. You would think that in these economic times that at least THAT would be some sort of incentive.
    "What don't kill ya make ya more strong"

    "...nothing good comes without work and a certain amount of pain."
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    Paramedic

  8. #8
    BlackBeltMedic is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Davis, RKC View Post
    My problem is that my friends and family that are overweight TRULY don't realize how dangerous it is. They're shaving years off of their life. They might as well smoke or drink a case of beer a day, it's having the same effect on their bodies.
    This reminds me of my dad (nothing against him). Before he got re-married again he basically lived off of fast food, pizza, chips, soda, cookies and chocolate ice cream. Oh yeah.... this was after he had already had a heart attack!!! His arguement was that the doctor said it was brought on primarily by stress and that his numbers were OK. Of course, I let him know that there was absolutely no way that what he ate was not a contributing factor. Ignorance is bliss. Amazingly he never became overweight.

    Part of the problem was being too lazy to actually prepare meals. This was by his own unappologetic admission. He simply found it easier to hit the drive thru window on the way home than cook a meal for himself and clean up afterwards. Nor did he pack a lunch to work so what do think happened with that every day?

    I argued the point that he could have a 3 course meal nightly with little effort. It's called the George Foreman grill. (It really is great). Put the meat on, wait, take it off, eat it. Cleaning it is easy. Vegetables: open the can, put contents in bowl, put in microwave. Easy. I know... fresh would be better but it's better than nothing, right? Other simple, easy things like fruits and nuts could easily have been taken care of by preparing a lunch for work along with a sandwich or two.

    Now that he's re-married again I'm sure he's on an at least somewhat better path. It's sad, though, that this is dependent upon always having someone there to do it for him. Again, I'm not knocking him on a personal level. However, he's one of millions with this outlook and it's just crazy. I can't do that to myself. I refuse to do that to myself.
    "What don't kill ya make ya more strong"

    "...nothing good comes without work and a certain amount of pain."
    __________________
    3rd Dan, Shudo Kan Karate

    Paramedic

  9. #9
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Davis, RKC View Post
    I have friends and family members that have fell into this trap of acceptance and complancency. Their argument is, "Well, I'm happy". They are happy in their spiritual life, marriage, job, etc. and they don't see the big deal about being 50+ pounds overweight.

    [..]
    My problem is that my friends and family that are overweight TRULY don't realize how dangerous it is. They're shaving years off of their life. They might as well smoke or drink a case of beer a day, it's having the same effect on their bodies. I'm glad they're happy but their health and quality of life is suffering because they/we have come to accept heavier people as being normal.

    What used to be taboo in this country is now everyday life and fat people are no exception. [..]
    My kid's generation is the first to be expected to NOT outlive me. This is what our culture has produced and it's very sad. Does anybody have that quote from JFK back in the 1960s? I think it was posted on this Forum before. Basically it brought up the fact that kids are getting lazier, less active and eating crappier food and we need to turn it around before our nation becomes a bunch of slobs. Apparrantly nobody listened. Good topic.

    Philip

    yup

    i hear you.

    so what's changed? in terms of food, it seems to be access.

    consider all the things that are about access that weren't in place commonly even 20 years ago
    - ubiquitous cell phones
    - ubiquitous internet
    - even higher density of fast food outlets

    so with these technologies (food access is part of a techno ecosystem) our expectations around feeding ourselves have changed too.

    combine that with the simple fact that we are in fact wired to do what we're doing - store and hoard food in ourselves for survival, to use food to address most of our very simple chemical triggers well of course we're going to eat.

    That folks here don't means
    a) like you say you have a goal to be fit and well and have educated yourself and aligned yourself with that - hell, this is a FITNESS s&c forum, eh?
    b) you've aligned your practice with that.

    Other people as you note really don't get it. I sit down with phd students about this stuff who are so out of shape their bones would snap in my hands i swear. Young men who struggle to get a 16 overhead or swing for 20 secs. They don't know this stuff. How could they? where is it taught?

    How many folks do you know in a real world context who could say yes i'm eating this carb rich food because my stress hormones are up and i'm responding reactively to that by giving myself fast sugar to flee.

    walk a mile in someone else's shoes - it's amazing what lives folks have that are happy and full or sad and stressed and happy in cycles and seem to be really ok in blisful unawareness of health and fitness because nothing has made it real for them.

    what is real is our wiring.
    i think perhaps as soon as we in the fitness space get our heads aound the fact that people who are overwieght are not undisciplined - they starve themselves repeatedly for long intervals - and ask the question so if you can do that how come this isn't working? we might get furhter ahead.

    we didn't evolve in an environment of abundance without physical effort and we're paying for that disconnect of living with such ready abundance and immediate access now.

    sorta makes sense we'd be getting fatter, no?

    eat less move more yes, i keep repeating myself. the fundamental principle is solid. and simple. the implementation is not. if it were all those diets would be working, wouldn't they?

    we need a better model
    mc
    mc, phd, cscs,
    rkc ii, ck-fms, z-health master trainer, precision nutrition level 1
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  10. #10
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    Default ps - we're the minority

    i think most of the time we forget when surrounded by like minded souls here how in the minority we are.

    65% of americans are now overweight/obese.

    and more
    A new report published in the Archives of Internal Medicine backs this up. According to the study, just 3 percent of us get the pyramid requirements completely right [(1) eat five servings of fruit/veg a day (2) don't smoke (3) exercise regularly (4) are at a healthy weight. -mc]

    That sounds kind of minuscule. Here is a breakdown of what the study found:

    • 23 percent eat five servings of fruits and vegetables a day;


    • 22 percent exercise for at least 30 minutes daily;


    • 76 percent don’t smoke;


    • 40 percent maintain a healthy weight (25 or less body mass index).

    so actually, according to more recent stats, in just two years, that 40% has dropped to 35%

    So it's now actually a wee bit less than 3%
    If you've arrived and you're part of the near 3% fantastic. but you're not normal or representative - statistically speaking.

    That's what i mean by minority and that's why i mean we need a new model to support "eat less/move more" and it's not gonna be a new diet or a new exercise program, is it?

    mc
    mc, phd, cscs,
    rkc ii, ck-fms, z-health master trainer, precision nutrition level 1
    instructor reviews :: begin2dig :: twitter :: facebook

    coaching/assessments in person and via web cam - meditatus radix/caveat emptor (i.e. "i'm not young enough to know everything" - o.wilde)

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