spondylolisthesis/deadlift advice

[nmilker44]

I aggravated my L5 spondylolisthesis 4 weeks ago conventional deadlifting. I am 38. Should I use a more sumo/conventional hybrid or straight sumo style to alleviate stress on the low back? I have always been a straight powerlifting guy but this injury has made me think about switching things up. I would love to lose some weight to help the back, maybe 30 lbs or so down to 200 (I am 5'10" with 12% bodyfat), but I want to keep my strength at the levels they are now. What should I change about my current lifting methods (conv DL, squat with bar low on back, BP every week once heavy/once light)? I love cleans and snatches, which irks my lifting partner, and would like to get into Olympic movements if I can safely do it with my back condition. Any advice on cardio and lifting training and nutrition, based on my fat loss goal and current lifting methods (i.e., what I need to possibly change up) would be greatly appreciated.

[Resurrected]

I can give you some great advice from knowing exactly where you're coming from. I had sever kyphosis when I was a teen, at 18, I had an 18 hour spinal fusion operation in which they fused T1-L2 to correct from 98 to 65 degrees of sagitall curvature. I only have C1-C7, T3-T5 left. I am 29 now and have experimented a lot with what aggravates and what doesn't. I would first look at what your total program looks like. What other exercises are you performing? What is the volume? For me, I am very careful to document EVERYTHING. I thought conventional pulling was irritating me, when actually it was the front squat. I realized that so many advocated front squats for people with spinal dysfunction because of the torso angle. However, the compressive, not shearing forces combined with long femur (moment arms, I am only 5' 10" though but long legs) causing anterior rotating of the hip really was the culprit on my SI joints. I quit squatting and continued deadlifting conventionally, and two weeks later problem solved. I am not suggesting that deadlifting in NOT your problem, but just think outside the box if you haven't already. However, SUMO will lessen the torque on the lumbar and shorten the distance of the pull. I hope this helps. Best wishes!

[brockster]

You have a medical condition, and should check with a good sports Doctor. If he is not a sports doctor, he will tell you that your lifting days are over. That may end up being true, but find a good sports doctor who wants to get you DLing again.
Your desire to drop some weight sounds sensible. At 5'10" 230 pounds I doubt that your BF is 12%. I am 5'10 and 170 lbs, and am about 15% BF.
Without a great deal more information, it is impossible to give you suggestions, much less advice. For instance, How does your recurrence manifest itself? Do you have pain?, Sciatica? Numbness?
I have worked around herniations in L4, L5 and have spondy-grade 1. Am doing for me heavy DLs, but had to work up to it very carefully, and with advice of Doctors, therapists etc.
Good luck on your quest; It will take time and patience and probably some luck.

[nmilker44]

Currently I BP heavy w/ tricep, delt, and volume lat work on Sat, SQ and traps (PC, shrugs, or upright row) on Sunday, light BP and triceps on Tuesday, DL w/ heavy lat and trap work on Wed. No machines. I do heavy ab work 3-4 times a week hitting obliques the most. I don't do any cardio except for the 5-10 minute high intensity warmup before all workouts, then stretching. And yes, I had my bodyfat measured about 6 months ago at 12%. Typically I squat for DL augmentation, only going up to 405 or so, but going DEEP because I feel uncomfortable actively stopping my momentum. I just let body position do it for me. I thought I was doing my back a favor by concentrating on heavy DL and focusing less on SQ weight. I may be wrong. But I have been at it for 20 years and habits are hard to break, especially for hardheads like me. The spondylolisthesis was diagnosed in 1987 after a football injury/stress fracture. I lift raw (wrist wraps always, most of the time no belt) and I am one of those generic 220-240 lb guys with a BP around 400 and DL around 600 (I know a bunch of guys like this), which have both varied over the years depending on how I feel on max day. I have no idea what my max SQ would be, but 365-405 ass-to-floor for 2-5x5-10 is what I'll typically go up to on my heavy day for what I have always called "DL maintenance." 6 weeks ago I did 285 with a clean and strict press and power snatched 225x5.

I need advice on cardio and nutrition and staying at my strength levels. 30 lbs might be too much for me to lose without sacrificing muscle and strength, it is just a number that sounded good.

The difficulty manifests itself through extreme soreness and occasional sharp pain only in the low back, not the legs, nor is there any numbness. But this has been rare and hasn't happened in 10 years or so, so it kinda messed with my head when it happened a month ago. Incidently, I also severely strained/maybe possibly slightly tore the lowest oblique simultaneously when the back thing just happened.

[brockster]

It sounds like you are way ahead of many of the comrades.
However, you should get to the sports doc. From your description, it may not be your back, but rather the strain or tear. have you had an Xray or MRI since the event that made you worry about the spondy?
As we all know, lower backs are intricate and hard to diagnose. Maybe you are too sensitive about the spondy, and this is one of deals that happens when you lift lots of heavy weight.
Why not back off from DLs for a couple of weeks and concentrate on core stuff--2 hand swings, not too heavy. That will work the cardio, and bolster the core.
The main thing is to make sure you know what you are dealing with. Guess work could be dangerous and/or set you back a long way. Se the sports doc.
Good luck.

[nmilker44]

I have seen a GP and he did proceed to lecture me about how "reckless" I have been over the years regarding my body. Whatever. He said when I go back on my return visit he may refer me to someone but the back is fine now and the ab is healing nicely. My wife forbade me to lift until the doc releases me, so in another week and a half I will be ready and VERY willing to get back in there and be "reckless" again, albeit with some minor changes possibly being made to my routine. That's where the weight loss idea came into play. I figure if I am lighter on my feet I won't do as much collateral damage when I perform heavy lifts, in regard to overall body connective tissue.

IMO I can more carefully perform DL and possibly switch to sumo, add some cardio (I have a sled from WSB I load weight on for sprints also), and if the weight can go down (I mean fat), I should be in business. Still don't know about the squatting situation and unless a sports doc sees me squat heavy, all he will be doing is speculating, which is exactly what I am asking forum readers to do as well!