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Thread: American Swing?

  1. #11
    Hurlburt85-89 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckie16 View Post
    In my opinion crossfit does the american swing because they then do not have to teach the snatch. Which is a much more technical lift. It's just a lot easier to teach.
    Fine.. I have no problem with that but they claim other things. Like they know more and we haven't explored their glorious range of motion. Even though we snatch.

  2. #12
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurlburt85-89 View Post
    Ok since I was banned on the CrossFit boards for asking this with no sarcasm or profanity, I will ask you guys. What is the point of an "American" swing? I don't get why you would teach people a lazy, poorly performed snatch.
    Being banned for asking a legitimate question seems a bit harsh, but I suppose Crossfit in general may be getting a little more defensive as it gets larger. They are receiving more criticism because of their publicity, it comes hand in hand.

    There was a very large thread about this about a month or two ago, here it is:

    Crossfit Swings

    Check it out and look at the debate and decide for yourself.

  3. #13
    jpd28 is offline Junior Member
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    I do not understand why so many people on this forum have a problem with overhead swings.
    Swinging a KB of a given weight higher than chest height requires a stronger pull so that might be justification enough if your heaviest kb is now light for you.
    In Pavel's original KB book, he said you could swing them to any height including overhead.
    KJ says that snatches work better than swings for mvo2 so maybe overhead swings would give you the mvo2 advantage of snatch without the hand issues.
    Last edited by jpd28; 09-04-2009 at 04:07 AM.

  4. #14
    greg57 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    I
    In Pavel's original KB book, he said you could swing them to any height including overhead.
    Yup, seen it with my own 2 eyes in the RKC DVD. Pavel doing a swing way overhead. These American swing threads make my head want to explode.

    Which is fine in itself but don't proclaim you suddenly know more than 300 years of experience with kettlebells and proclaim a big sloppy swing is the ultimate. You are dumbing it down for the masses.
    How about less than 10 years of history, the Russian did them first.

    We may no longer teach swings this way, but they were a part of the RKC system not that long ago, get over yourselves.

  5. #15
    Snakebite is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    I do not understand why so many people on this forum have a problem with overhead swings.
    One of the reasons might be the whole lat-firing thing. It's supposed to be crusial in a "hard-style" swing. And if you're "firing your lat" properly - your arm simply won't go much higher than chest/head level.

    Wether or not that makes one or another kind of swing "superior" is quite a childish debate. It's a different excercise. Whats a better excercise: squat or a deadlift?

  6. #16
    Pavel Tsatsouline Guest

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    Comrades, overhead swings have been around and are occasionally done by weightlifters in Eastern Europe. I have mentioned this exercise in the Russian Kettlebell Challenge book. You may do them if:

    1. You have mastered a lower swing.
    2. You have no thoracic and shoulder restrictions and you do not hyperextend your back or jam your shoulders on the top.
    3. Your body is skinny enough not to get in the way.

    Com. Brett Jones has pointed that "The snatch is an exercise in elevating the energy, the swing is an exercise in projecting the energy forward. If we want to elevate—we will snatch."

    Why would you want to project your force forward rather than up?—Because, unlike weigthtlifting and some Highland throwing, many sports (boxing, martial arts, football, shot put, etc.) demand it. And when you project your force forward your abs and lats act as the sights of a gun. The arms pointing forward and the abs being short bring the "sights" in line. "Spreading the sights" weakens the punch. Try an experiment: throw a few punches against a chest level target, then punch a target overhead, and compare your power.

    Read up on Prof. McGill's concepts of "superstiffness" and "leakage".

  7. #17
    vsharma is offline Member
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    A very helpful explanation! Thank you Pavel.

  8. #18
    recon42 is offline Banned
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    Default RKC way

    Do them the right way. Screw Crossfit.

  9. #19
    ZachariahSalazarRKC is offline Senior Member
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    Awesome explanation, Chief Instructor.

    As an aside, although I am not a fan of Crossfit's form over over intensity I have know many that do snatch and some with RKC form. I dont think it is fair to say that some many of them do it cuz they cant snatch or dont want to teach it-i think they are just being handed a model by those that train them.

    I also wanted to mention that the idea of collecting a lot of loaded movement patterns is a good idea I just think that their program intensity, form and exertion are skewed in the wrong direction. I do think the majority are just looking for a good fitness model and a community of practice like we have here. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  10. #20
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    KJ says that snatches work better than swings for mvo2 so maybe overhead swings would give you the mvo2 advantage of snatch without the hand issues.
    You only get hand issues if you have technique issues. If you use the drop and catch method properly, you won't have hand issues.

    For instance, when I started ETK about a year ago, I had some hand issues with the skin being pushed up towards the base of the fingers because I was not using the drop and catch method (those who have done this will understand what I am saying). Eventually, I figured out a way to prevent this because it was quite uncomfortable. I intuitively started using something similar to the drop and catch method, not exactly the same but very similar. Then I watched Mr. Vezina's drop and catch video and altered my snatch form and I have yet to tear my hands at all.

    As for the overhead swing being equivalent to the snatch, in order to actually discover whether or not it is actually effective, you would have to scientifically test it. As Kenneth Jay has also said before, and many notable fitness instructors, just because you get smoked by a workout doesn't mean that it was effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by greg57 View Post
    We may no longer teach swings this way, but they were a part of the RKC system not that long ago, get over yourselves.
    The RKC is a constantly evolving philosophy/training methodology. Just because something was done in the past doesn't mean that it's correct or still encouraged. Now I'm not saying the overhead swing is wrong, but it's not a staple of the RKC system any longer.

    Pavel himself has stated in this thread that if you have certain conditions, you may do overhead swings as you desire. Either way, it's been argued, why don't you just do the snatch instead?

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