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Thread: American Swing?

  1. #21
    jpd28 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ideal Paradigm View Post
    You only get hand issues if you have technique issues. If you use the drop and catch method properly, you won't have hand issues.

    For instance, when I started ETK about a year ago, I had some hand issues with the skin being pushed up towards the base of the fingers because I was not using the drop and catch method (those who have done this will understand what I am saying). Eventually, I figured out a way to prevent this because it was quite uncomfortable. I intuitively started using something similar to the drop and catch method, not exactly the same but very similar. Then I watched Mr. Vezina's drop and catch video and altered my snatch form and I have yet to tear my hands at all.

    As for the overhead swing being equivalent to the snatch, in order to actually discover whether or not it is actually effective, you would have to scientifically test it. As Kenneth Jay has also said before, and many notable fitness instructors, just because you get smoked by a workout doesn't mean that it was effective.



    The RKC is a constantly evolving philosophy/training methodology. Just because something was done in the past doesn't mean that it's correct or still encouraged. Now I'm not saying the overhead swing is wrong, but it's not a staple of the RKC system any longer.

    Pavel himself has stated in this thread that if you have certain conditions, you may do overhead swings as you desire. Either way, it's been argued, why don't you just do the snatch instead?
    It is nonsense to assume that proper technique eliminates hand issues. It minimizes them. Even top gs athletes with great technique can have hand issues with heavy kbs on hot humid days. Hand issues does not only mean torn callouses. It also means having to devote time to hand care as outlined in etk. Hand strength also can be a limiting factor with snatches vs 2 hand overhead swings.

    I did not say 2 hand overhead swings would work as well as snatches for KJs mv02. I put it out there as a hypothesis.

    You say why not just snatch. I say why not do either or both if that is what you want to do.

  2. #22
    vinceh4 is offline Senior Member
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    Looks like a shoulder f___er. It reminds me of guys "kipping" heavy front dumbell raises.

  3. #23
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    It is nonsense to assume that proper technique eliminates hand issues. It minimizes them. Even top gs athletes with great technique can have hand issues with heavy kbs on hot humid days. Hand issues does not only mean torn callouses. It also means having to devote time to hand care as outlined in etk. Hand strength also can be a limiting factor with snatches vs 2 hand overhead swings.

    I did not say 2 hand overhead swings would work as well as snatches for KJs mv02. I put it out there as a hypothesis.

    You say why not just snatch. I say why not do either or both if that is what you want to do.
    Hand care is a part of the recovery portion of exercise. If you're too lazy to take care of your hands while on a training regimen, then that's on you. If doing any Kettlebell exercise whatsoever meant that you had to take care of your hands or any other part of your body more extensively than normal; would you really view this as an issue and just stop using Kettlebells altogether? Under the assumption that you drive a car, I will give you this example. You get into a car to drive acknowledging the fact that you could get into a car accident by virtue of driving on the roads, does that stop you from driving your car because it might happen?

    I take a whole body strengthening perspective to exercise and I believe that if your hand strength is limiting your ability to do snatches, then you're simply ignoring the weakest link in the exercise chain, and bypassing the finer points of the exercise. Supplement with some grip training, then continue snatching. It's that simple. Whether or not someone wants to do this will vary from person to person, but then again, that's also on them.

    For the VO2, I will ask Kenneth Jay this at his September seminar next weekend to see what he has to say about it, or if he plans on testing something similar.

    If you want to do both the snatch and the overhead swing, then go ahead, but for the goals that many Crossfitters propose that it is used for, a snatch is more effective. But hey, if you'd rather build a fire to cook your food everyday instead of using your stove, that's okay too.

  4. #24
    jpd28 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ideal Paradigm View Post
    Hand care is a part of the recovery portion of exercise. If you're too lazy to take care of your hands while on a training regimen, then that's on you. If doing any Kettlebell exercise whatsoever meant that you had to take care of your hands or any other part of your body more extensively than normal; would you really view this as an issue and just stop using Kettlebells altogether? Under the assumption that you drive a car, I will give you this example. You get into a car to drive acknowledging the fact that you could get into a car accident by virtue of driving on the roads, does that stop you from driving your car because it might happen?

    I take a whole body strengthening perspective to exercise and I believe that if your hand strength is limiting your ability to do snatches, then you're simply ignoring the weakest link in the exercise chain, and bypassing the finer points of the exercise. Supplement with some grip training, then continue snatching. It's that simple. Whether or not someone wants to do this will vary from person to person, but then again, that's also on them.
    The fact that the effects of snatching on your hands is not an "important" issue to you does not mean it is not an issue. It is not an important issue for me either. It is a negative factor for snatches when deciding what exercise to do. An example a little bit more relevant than the car example is that of a person who truly has only 20 minutes a day to exercise. Does it make since for him to spend a portion of his time trimming callouses, applying lotion, soaking hands etc or just doing 20 minutes of exercise not requiring hand care.

    Back to the actual point of the thread. 1 hand swings will work your hands more than snatches. I doubt that there is anyone who can do more work (mass time distance) in a given duration with snatches than with 2 hand swings. This should give a greater conditioning effect. You can swing heavier than you can snatch which will build greater strength. Swings are a great exercise so why limit yourself to chest high swings. Would you limit yourself to one speed when running or would you occasionally sprint? Would you only run on a track or would you sometime run on roads, trails or hills?
    Last edited by jpd28; 09-06-2009 at 03:15 AM.

  5. #25
    Josef is offline Senior Member
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    If you want variety when you swing, try changing the work:rest ratio, weight, or the number of sets.
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  6. #26
    Danny Evans is offline Senior Member
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    My question is...can someone generate enough hip snap, to actually propel the bell to the overhead position for the American Swing?? If not, then you're pulling it with your arms, which seems to change the lift from a true Swing. This leads us back to...if you want to put the bell that high, snatch it.
    IMHO, I don't think it's possible.
    So, if you do use the arms to help get the bell that high, is that the correct form, for THAT type of Swing, or is the height of the bell for ALL swings, supposed to be dictated by pure hip snap?
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  7. #27
    selfcritical is offline Senior Member
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    I guess that will depend on the weight involved. If you're swinging what you would normally swing, i'd think not (I don't think i'd be able to consistently produce that result with the 16kg in my current conditioning level).

    20lb? All day every day.

    If you can consistently get it overhead without pulling it, you might need a heavier bell.

  8. #28
    Danny Evans is offline Senior Member
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    If you can consistently get it overhead without pulling it, you might need a heavier bell.
    Agreed.

    It's not about how high the bell goes...if your hip snap is strong, the bell height will take care of itself. A bell going to eye-level, with no hip snap is crap; you're pulling it there. If you're hip snap is very explosive, and the bell goes eye-level, it's becuase your HIPS propelled it there, which is the goal.

    Too many people focus on the height of the bell, and not how much hip snap they're generating.
    Last edited by Danny Evans; 09-06-2009 at 10:33 AM. Reason: to make a more precise point
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  9. #29
    PeterHuntRKC is offline Senior Member
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    Instead of screwing around with the American Swing, why not go with the Crescent Swing as detailed by Brett Jones, MRKC, on the "Ballistics" disk from his Kettlebell Basics for Strength Coaches and Personal Trainers DVD?

    @ Brett Jones

    Your DVD is an awesome training/teaching tool. Thank you, sir!

    Regards,
    Peter.

  10. #30
    Ideal Paradigm is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    The fact that the effects of snatching on your hands is not an "important" issue to you does not mean it is not an issue. It is not an important issue for me either. It is a negative factor for snatches when deciding what exercise to do. An example a little bit more relevant than the car example is that of a person who truly has only 20 minutes a day to exercise. Does it make since for him to spend a portion of his time trimming callouses, applying lotion, soaking hands etc or just doing 20 minutes of exercise not requiring hand care.
    Don't get me wrong, you bring up a good point with your 20 minute example. I understand what you're trying to convey. However, on a more realistic basis you forget one crucial aspect of only having 20 minutes to exercise. Realistically, the amount of volume that most people can fit into 20 minutes is not nearly enough to merit hand care to the degree which you suggest. How do I know this? I train much more than 20 minutes a day, and I have never had to file my callouses, and I have never had to soak my hands. I just use hand care lotion. I have also never ripped a callous on my hands, ever. Earlier you stated that even top GS athletes have hand issues, yes that is true, but top GS athletes also do not only train for 20 minutes a day.

    With good technique, minimizing hand issues (not eliminating them as you stated earlier), someone on the Max VO2 protocol in VWC would still have time to take care of their hands. How is this so? Here's an example: If someone was training on the Max VO2 protocol three or four days a week at 9 repetitions per interval on the 15:15 protocol, they would still only be able to get in 40 sets at 9 repetitions per set. This comes out to 360 snatches every 20 minute workout. Let's assume that this person is training Max VO2 only and that they have four sessions a week (keep in mind three sessions is quite enough and four is treading on thin ice, as you're getting quite close to over training). You still have three days out of the week where you have 20 minutes to take care of your hands. You may say, well, what if they want to train other things besides max VO2 in other parts of the week? If you purchased VWC, you would know that this is quite possible it's actually suggestion # 1 or suggestion # 3 that recommends how to piece together your workouts, while still adding in adequate rest to avoid over training (the very same rest periods where you can take care of your hands). Ergo, if you train strength significantly on the days that you don't train for VO2 max, you're adding even more susceptibility to over training. If you end up over training, you're going to have to take time off anyways, and that would give you time to take care of your hands. Safety 101: It's still your fault.

    Furthermore, if you only had 3 20 minute days out of the week to train, the total volume for the week would be decreased. If total volume of snatches is positively correlated with hand care requirements, then it's simple to see that if you have the time to fit in more snatches, you have the time to fit in some hand care. If someone says, well I don't want to take care of my hands, but I want to snatch for an hour. Well, too damn bad. You can't drink a gallon of water and expect not to go to the restroom either.

    It's a fail-safe principle with this concept in mind. Less time means less time needed to devote to hand care. More time to work out means you should have more time for hand care as well. They go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive.

    I do understand what you're trying to say, if someone wants to just work out and not have to care about their hands, I can see that. But just how far will that go? The same dilemma takes place for people who want to lose weight, but they don't want to put in the work.

    "I want to eat cheeseburgers everyday, but I want to lose weight too, how do I go about doing this?"

    My answer is going to be, choose one, because you can't have both. For those who are willing to put in the work to have both, by virtue of their work ethic they most likely wouldn't be asking a question like this to begin with, because they will have already known how to achieve this goal on their own.

    If you're not willing to take care of yourself (hand care in our example), but you're willing to exercise to make yourself better, it just seems like you're contradicting yourself in terms of whole body wellness.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    Back to the actual point of the thread. 1 hand swings will work your hands more than snatches. I doubt that there is anyone who can do more work (mass time distance) in a given duration with snatches than with 2 hand swings. This should give a greater conditioning effect. You can swing heavier than you can snatch which will build greater strength. Swings are a great exercise so why limit yourself to chest high swings. Would you limit yourself to one speed when running or would you occasionally sprint? Would you only run on a track or would you sometime run on roads, trails or hills?
    First, are you talking about two handed overhead swings, or two handed hard style swings?

    Someone else in the thread talked about something similar earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    The arguement is that the wider range of motion= more work. This may very well be true PER REP. However, I feel the last third of the arc is significantly slower than the rest, so your ability to do work PER TIME is dimished
    You talk about two handed swings giving a better conditioning effect. I'm not really going to touch base on this, because "conditioning" as a whole has numerous facets that I do not believe I have the expertise to cover.

    You also talk about how you can swing heavier than you can snatch and that it will build strength. Yes this is true, but if you're using the swing for building strength, then you're not using it for conditioning. A bell that is light enough to swing to elicit significant aerobic metabolic improvement is not going to be a bell that you're swinging to improve your phosphagen or creatine energy system. Keep in mind that when I'm talking about strength I'm referring to anything that would improve your 1 RM or being able to lift more weight (the Creatine/Phosphagen system). When I'm talking about conditioning above, I'm referring more to the endurance aspect (aerobic system).

    In the case that you're talking about Max VO2 conditioning, Kenneth Jay himself has stated that the snatch is more effective at eliciting a VO2 Max response than the two handed swing, or the one handed swing. The two handed swing does work, it is just not as good. Does that mean you shouldn't do two handed swings? Absolutely not, swing away, comrade. The only other exercise that comes close to the snatch is the Viking Push Press. The last I heard about the Viking Push Press was that they did not know the exact reason for why it is so similar to the snatch in terms of eliciting a VO2 Max response.
    Last edited by Ideal Paradigm; 09-06-2009 at 05:44 PM.

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