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Thread: American Swing?

  1. #61
    Josef is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpd28 View Post
    Lance Armstrong seems to have developed a pretty good mvo2 pedalling a bike which does not have much upper body anything.
    I thought KJ was investigating swings further to see if there was a better mv02 swing protocol. I would guess that you might have to replace 16kg kb with at least a 20kg kb as swings are easier than snatches.
    You didn't read that quote at all, did you? It's not about a lack of muscle involvement. You said you have Kenneth's DVD set. Check back on the section covering muscle perfusion. When a muscle contracts, it traps blood. When it relaxes, it releases it. A quick contract-relax cycle acts to pump the blood like a piston. That is why slow lifts are not ideal for training one's VO2Max. This is what Kenneth is referring to. The swing, however, keeps the muscles of the upper body under constant tension. This reduces the impact on VO2Max, according to Kenneth, by as much as 20%.
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  2. #62
    jpd28 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josef View Post
    You didn't read that quote at all, did you? It's not about a lack of muscle involvement. You said you have Kenneth's DVD set. Check back on the section covering muscle perfusion. When a muscle contracts, it traps blood. When it relaxes, it releases it. A quick contract-relax cycle acts to pump the blood like a piston. That is why slow lifts are not ideal for training one's VO2Max. This is what Kenneth is referring to. The swing, however, keeps the muscles of the upper body under constant tension. This reduces the impact on VO2Max, according to Kenneth, by as much as 20%.
    I did watch both dvds twice and I under stand his and your point. This thread is about high swings and there is no more muscle tension in the ballistic portion of high swing than in the snatch. Therre may be less.

  3. #63
    faizalenu is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by FooWidget View Post
    Hey IP,

    This is a side note to the main issue, but I thought I'd respond to this point.

    I think you could normalize the experiment more than one way. For example, instead of holding the weight constant, you could hold the amount of work constant. As an approximation, Force x distance x number of reps = Work. Distance would be vertical from the low point to the high point of your swing or snatch. So if you keep the number of reps the same, you'd use less weight for the snatches than for swings.

    Incidentally, I haven't read VWC (I'm not ready for it), but I got the impression that the advantage of the snatch over the swing for VWC is that you can control the pace of snatches by pausing longer or shorter at the top. Is that not the case?

    Susan
    Agreed....for the most part. If you really think about it Max VO2 is really just a proxy for how much work is being done. Another think to think about, and I have seen this debated to death unnecessarily on this forum, is that you don't have to necessarily work at 100.00000000% of your Max VO2 to improve your Max VO2. I know that my max VO2 improved tremendously even though I have never done max VO2 snatches:
    * Swings improve Max VO2
    * Snatches heavier than prescribed by VWC improves Max VO2 (not too heavy)
    * HoC improves Max VO2
    * High Effort DDR improves Max VO2
    ==> Even though I have only done max VO2 about 4 times in my life (24kg x 7-8reps/15 s x 15-30 min), I still think I am getting Max VO2 improvement. I am not saying Max VO2 training is not great, I am just saying you don't have to be so gnat's arse-precise about it to see benefit.

    I have never done the cadence test, and I swing, snatch, LC, jerk and my VO2 is improving. Just like you don't have to be at exactly 170.00000000000% of Max VO2 for tababa's to be beneficial, you don't have to be at 100.0000000000% for KB ballistics to be effective for cardiorespiratory conditioning.
    Faizal S. Enu, CFT/RKC/PBA
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  4. #64
    pull_man54 is offline Senior Member
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    Wow. This has got to be one of the longest threads I have seen on the board. I would like to comment on the issue that began the thread namely, the so called "American Swing" and CrossFit in general.
    CrossFit, by it's very core philosophy, tries to utilize many types of strength and cv training in order to attain (in their view) a more comprehensive training effect. Hwever, if you look at their workouts of the day, there is not really that much use of kettlebells. Presently, there are ten wod's posted on their site and none of them use kbs. So CF is not really big on kb. training and they certainly are not going to "waste time" on honing their technique. They are trying to get "more bang for the buck" so to speak. That's the idea behind the American Swing - why swing only to chest level when you can get a better training effect by swinging overhead? They do not go into the fine points of proper kb. technique or outward propulsion vs. overhead propulsion. Although I am not an Olympic lifter, I would assume that there are similar problems with CF's use of this method of training.
    I am stunned that a person would be banned from their board by asking, what appears to me, to be a legitimate and pertinent question.

  5. #65
    Chris Hansen is offline Senior Member
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    As usual, I think Pavel's reply was best. What I got out of it was: If you meet the necessary conditions, swing as high as you want. He kind of left it unsaid that it might be irresponsible to just tell everyone to do it that way.

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