Points of diminishing returns...

[shmathews]

I got this email today from Art of Manliness. It outlines five standards for every man from Earle Liederman. It does not discuss the point of diminishing returns, but it does paint a broad picture of physical preparation.

Every Man Should Be Able to Save His Own Life: 5 Fitness Benchmarks a Man Must Master | The Art of Manliness

[greg57]

Don't get me wrong pushups, it's a great question and I am looking forward to reading the responses as they come, I was just pointing out that it is a bit academic for many of us.

[shmathews]

Originally Posted by greg57

Don't get me wrong pushups, it's a great question and I am looking forward to reading the responses as they come, I was just pointing out that it is a bit academic for many of us.

True. Most of us aren't saying "dang, I'm too strong!"

[powerlifter54]

My first response would be to spend time on being a better fighter by working on fighting.

Second you are going to make the most progress and get the most carryover in the initial improvement you get from adding in intervals, heavy weight training, BJJ, etc.

But last week somebody posted about losing identity from no longer having sports related goals to train to...so if you are training for health and general well being and setting a goal inside your own training increasing form 2x to 2.5x dl is great if it gets you in the gym.

jmo

[rwleonard]

Originally Posted by brandell

I THINK What Pavel is trying to say is, if you want to be a good athlete, there is a point lifting wise where doing more isn't going to make you a better athlete. You are better off spending your time working that sport.

Well...yeah, but that's the question, isn't it: Where are those points? For another example, Dan John said he saw his throw increase as his squat went to 405, but it acually fell off as he got up to 600.

The H2H expert quoted in ETK said you could do a lot more than 50/50@24kg if you want but "it won't make you fight any better."

Have any of you noted, either in your own training or that of your clients/charges, similar effects? Even if they are very sport specific, I think the rest of us could decide if they apply to us or not.

shmathews: Nice link, that's the spirit!

Rick

[TrackStar]

I'm not sure it really matters unless your like a basketball player chasing a 800lb squat for no reason. Your non-sport specific goals are what give you identity and something else to concentrate on. For example, anyone who has seen the UFC all access episodes should realize how different everyone's training is.

W. Silva: swimming with weights underwater
Griffin: running with a weighted sled behind him
Lesnar: bear crawling long distances
Sherk: tire flipping
Franklin: 60 minute circuit lifting

Did bear crawls make Brock Lesnar the athlete he is? Probably not, but the exercise resonated with him thats why he does them a lot. Picking a "favorite exercise/lift" is healthy and having a good attitude towards training is far more important than diminishing returns. For example I'm a 160 lb wrestler with a 500 lb deadlift. I have no idea if the 180 pound difference between 320-500 has improved my wrestling, but I like doing heavy deads because if I can get 500 lbs off the floor, it makes me feel like I can lift a 160 lb person with ease no matter the position.

[faizalenu]

In ETK Pavel quotes a Russian hand-to-hand expert as believing that, for a fighter, 50 snatches lefft, 50 right, with a 24kg kettlebell is a point of diminishing returns, i.e., time to focus some of your time/energy on other things. In a recent thread, Pavel put a double BW deadlift in the same category for most types of athletes.

You really have to look at this in two ways....
* What incremental benefit "to fighting" (or whatever your frame of reference is) would increasing your snatches have... we will call this "B"
* How much does it "cost" you to get the incremental improvement (in terms of time, equipment, coaching, etc. converted to a common denomination)... we will call this "C"

In training and in life, we want to increase our incremental return, or B-C. This is over all training activities.

In this case, I believe that in increase from 20L/20R to 50L/50R, you are increase the qualities that make you a better fighter (grip strength, strength endurance, focus, tension during rest, etc.). Also, you can make this increase relatively quickly (ask some people who took some of my advice )

Let's say that you want to go to 70L/70R. To do this, you will have to:
* Learn GS specific techniques, which contribute little to fighting
* More focus practice in GS, which will mean less focus on fighting practice for those whose time is limited
* It will not have the same relative benefit as going from 20-50

In Dan John's example, it is similar.
* Improving his bench up to a point made him stronger AND more powerful
* After that point, he was increasing limit strength (max F) at the expense of power/throwing (max F*v)

I had my own example of this. I used to a be a pretty high level soccer player, but I weight training was focused more on bodybuilding routines than strength training (I though they were one and the same, boy was I wrong).

At first, I got bigger (163 to 170) and stronger and faster. When I got up to 185, I was bigger, faster and slower, even though body comp was the same. When I took a powerlifting seminar, I practiced box squats and speed benches, and I got faster because I trained for speed.

If you want to get better at whatever sport you do, you need to work backwards from your "desired outcome", and plan your exercise program to get that outcome.

[fatman]

The point of the "diminishing returns" comment was that athletes in sports (other than bodybuilding, weightlifting, powerlifting and strongman) should spend more time on sport-specific practice and not sweat the strength stuff much, once they have achieved a good baseline of strength.

As someone wrote once, "it's all about how you put it together", meaning performance on the field/track/hall/ring/whatever. I'm pretty sure I could outlift Vitaly Klitschko or Mike Tyson (at least in a few lifts), but in a ring they would turn me into hamburger meat within the first 3 minutes. And Michael Jordan can still jump about 10 feet higher than me although I doubt he can squat/DL as much (not anymore, at least). He's also slightly better at shooting hoops.

Same can be said about conditioning, etc. I have seen some of the athletes I used to train with turn into regular monsters in the gym or running laps on the track, but the guys who actually knew how to play the sport were still better at the sport. Just a thought.

[rwleonard]

Originally Posted by fatman

The point of the "diminishing returns" comment was that athletes in sports (other than bodybuilding, weightlifting, powerlifting and strongman) should spend more time on sport-specific practice and not sweat the strength stuff much, once they have achieved a good baseline of strength.

Which brings us back to yet another version of the original question: What have you found to constitute a "good baseline of strength" in your chosen sport?

Rick

[howies81]

Originally Posted by rwleonard

Which brings us back to yet another version of the original question: What have you found to constitute a "good baseline of strength" in your chosen sport?

Rick

I was told by Jack Woodrup of www.verticaljumping.com that " a good baseline of strength" in the deadlift was 2.75x bodyweight and the squat was 2x bodyweight for people who want to increase their vertical. So I assumed that this was a good baseline of strength for sports like basketball, football, hockey, soccer etc. So honestly, I was kind of surprised when Pavel said in another thread that 2x BW in the DL was the point of diminishing returns.