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  1. #11
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    ps i think i was writing the above while andrea actually got in a reply. a lot of the same sentiment far more succinctly expressed.
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  2. #12
    negf03 is offline Senior Member
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    MC-

    While I appreciate your detailed and thorough response, I must add this:

    The post was simply intended to be motivational towards women to challenge themselves, not to encourage them to constantly lift 1RMs or to discourage them from proper movement by any means.

    For the sake of BREVITY, which I am a huge fan of, the post does not go into the minutia about what the statement "Real women lift heavy weights" truly means. Heavy is relative, based on the individual, their bodyweight, their skill level and their current place in their training cycle.

    Bottom line: Most women are not maximizing their physical potential. When they start to go down that path, they will realize how empowering it can be and find a sense of intrinsic strength.

    Please do not misunderstand one statement as the end all be all of mottos for strength and conditioning. Women need to challenge themselves appropriately.
    Neghar Fonooni, RKC II, NASM, ACE, FMS
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  3. #13
    Lizanneh is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mc View Post
    Also, while there was some debate about this, when speaking with three dozen gals on a health and fitness forum, none of them were concerned about bulking up. so this seems to be a lack of knowledge thing for some gals coming into fitness. So this seems to be an eaasily and quickly dispelled myth for most gals who get into training.

    <snip>

    I think i get the spirit of the article: there's a myth that women are as afraid of lifting something heavy as they are of bulking up. in my experience working with women of all ages most have neither issue. What both genders lack is knowledge of how strength is a practice, and how to practice it.
    Hi MC.

    Where did you post your survey? I'm a woman who lifts weights and I have lots of other female friends and see lots of other women in the gym. Very few of the women at the gym ever venture out of the cardio area. Those who do are more likely to do crunches and arm exercises (the latter using tiny dumbbells) than anything else. When I'm at the gym, there are two other women who will lift in the same area as the muscular men, using the squat rack, barbells, and larger dumbbells. There are 10-15 others elsewhere in the gym, not counting those at pilates or zumba classes.

    Among my friends, I've actually heard things like "I want long lean muscle tone," or "I want to get toned, not muscular." I had a personal trainer (woman) at my gym, after I shared my excitement at barbell deadlifting 125lbs tell me to be careful not to bulk up.

    I even know women who lift heavy weights who are concerned about bulk, particularly in their legs. Some of the strongest women I know limit the weightlifting they do with their legs so that they can still pull their jeans on over their quads.

    Your survey must have pulled responses from a very interesting and well-informed group of women. If they are readers of your blog, then you've done a good job educating them.

    ETA: Just thought of this - someone else did a survey of whether women would rather look like Jessica Biel or Jessica Alba. Jessica Alba, the less muscular of the two, won by a surprisingly large margin. The women commented that Jessica Biel was too muscular. (!!!) So don't forget to put comments into context.

    ETA2: Here's the link - it was Leigh Peele, and the survey was of 2000 women.
    http://www.leighpeele.com/bulky-musc...the-definition
    Last edited by Lizanneh; 04-15-2010 at 09:43 AM.
    Liz Muirhead, HKC
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  4. #14
    mc
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    @Lizanneh,
    if you click on the link in the paragraph you quoted, you'll have it, as well as the population. and no it wasn't readers of my blog, they were participants on the precision nutrition forum from a wide range of backgrounds and practices.



    @negf03
    Quote Originally Posted by negf03 View Post

    Please do not misunderstand one statement as the end all be all of mottos for strength and conditioning.
    i don't think i am: your fundamental assertion is that women need to "lift heavy", yes? it's also the title of your post.

    your statement here is "heavy being relative."

    in your article you define this as something one can "only lift 10 times" - agreed that's relative.
    Bottom line: Most women are not maximizing their physical potential
    as to working up to our potential, again, what does that mean? you seem to suggest that too is load-related again, right? considering that your inspiring stats are all feats of strength related, yes? some gals surely will be inspired by your example. no doubt; you see that here.
    that's great

    i'm just saying of late i've been thinking about the nature of strength, resilience, and examples like Andrea who's not interested as far as i know in doing the beast challenge or lifting particularly heavy. is that "maximizing their physical potential"?

    i'm just musing aloud.

    Women need to challenge themselves appropriately.
    two points - this is apart from the whole heavy or not so heavy thing, but about the assertion that "women" in particular need to do something. again, this is just an observation across some disciplines.

    first
    i work mostly with men of all ages, but particularly young men. i don't see the gender divide that you're suggesting around "physical potential"

    while i don't have the stats to say that women need to "challenge themselves appropriately" more than men (and again, i'm not entirely sure what appropriately means)-- in the states and uk, obesity for instance is pretty gender neutral-- and most of the time there are more gals in the gym where i work then men, and more gals than men at kb workshops.

    second: i am intrigued when i see women referring to women as "them" rather than "us"

    i'm also not surprised by anecdotes that suggest that women stick to cardio machines rather than charge into the weights area. IT can be really intimidating. There's stories in other disciplines like computer science that without moderation by adults in schools, little boys will hog the computers in a classroom and girls will hang back. We're well conditioned to be nurturing and not get in the way (or enter a threatful situation)

    i remember when the U of T started having a women's HOUR once a week in the weight room the dust up there was about that - from men and women. But what happened? A lot more gals started using the weight room. I've been asked by grad student gals here to run how to use weights classes for them - they're great. And it was the gals who asked for it; not the boys after some open kb classes.

    Create space for women/girls, it seems we use the resources. Crossfit shows that really well; kb classes show that: over on the RKC forum, i once asked what the population of most kb workshops run by rkcs is. 50% women or more was the general reply.

    let me repeat, these are just my observations on practice - your mileage may vary.

    And as with others who have said so, congratulations on your achievements.


    mc
    mc, phd, cscs,
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    coaching/[URL="http://www.begin2dig.com/2010/11/whats-movement-assessment-for-petes.html"]assessments[/URL] in person and via web cam -[I] meditatus radix/caveat emptor (i.e. "i'm not young enough to know everything" - o.wilde)
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  5. #15
    mc
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    by the way, i do not want to start a back and forth here, and am afraid this might be seen as someone having to defend a position. It's not - i'm just riffing about as said, what i've been exploring. it may not hold any water for yours or anyone else's experience.

    just food for thought.

    best
    mc
    mc, phd, cscs,
    rkc ii, ck-fms, z-health master trainer[U], [/U]precision nutrition level 1
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    coaching/[URL="http://www.begin2dig.com/2010/11/whats-movement-assessment-for-petes.html"]assessments[/URL] in person and via web cam -[I] meditatus radix/caveat emptor (i.e. "i'm not young enough to know everything" - o.wilde)
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  6. #16
    schnieder is offline Senior Member
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    i think authentic feminine beauty, especially interior beauty, goes beyond even lifting heavy weights off the ground...although that is certainly a very cool and worthwhile thing to do.

  7. #17
    negf03 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by schnieder View Post
    i think authentic feminine beauty, especially interior beauty, goes beyond even lifting heavy weights off the ground...although that is certainly a very cool and worthwhile thing to do.
    Agreed. For me personally, training hard with a movement based philosophy is what gave me that authentic, interior beauty, because it made me realize that there is nothing I can't do.
    Neghar Fonooni, RKC II, NASM, ACE, FMS
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  8. #18
    negf03 is offline Senior Member
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    as to working up to our potential, again, what does that mean? you seem to suggest that too is load-related again, right? considering that your inspiring stats are all feats of strength related, yes? some gals surely will be inspired by your example. no doubt; you see that here.
    that's great

    i'm just saying of late i've been thinking about the nature of strength, resilience, and examples like Andrea who's not interested as far as i know in doing the beast challenge or lifting particularly heavy. is that "maximizing their physical potential"?



    I certainly don't think that maximizing potential is simply load related. That's just one example that I chose to use, because it seems to be the most glaring. I think maximizing your potential begins with changing your mindset. The problem I see is not just that the majority of ladies (our community is obviously the exception) don't challenge themselves load wise, but that they approach fitness with a distorted and unhealthy mentality. I have been in this field for 9 years, from the west coast to the east coast and I cannot tell you how many times I have heard:

    "I don't want to sweat"

    "I don't want to work hard"

    "I don't want to bulk up"

    "I hate lifting weights"

    "I want to look like a victoria secret model"

    "I can't do it"

    "I don't want to do it"

    ..and the list goes on. You get the idea. Change our mentality, change our life. Change the way we view exercise, change our reasons for exercising, and we have so much to gain. My issue is not that I believe we need to all go after feats of strength, but that we need to approach the gym with the intent of becoming stronger and moving better. For some people, that is just moving their body weight flawlessly. For others, that is increasing work capacity. WHatever it is, I am suggesting that we, as females, need to change our views. Train hard to accomplish something substantial, not to look good in a bikini (although that's a nice side-affect).
    Neghar Fonooni, RKC II, NASM, ACE, FMS
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  9. #19
    CaptShady is offline Senior Member
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    Loved the article! I read a few others on your blog as well, it's good reading.

  10. #20
    negf03 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptShady View Post
    Loved the article! I read a few others on your blog as well, it's good reading.
    Thank you so much! I'm trying to write more often now that I know people are actually reading it .
    Neghar Fonooni, RKC II, NASM, ACE, FMS
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