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  1. #1
    AriSuper is offline Senior Member
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    Default New report/article from Kenneth Jay on KB lifting


  2. #2
    MD52 is offline Member
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    A bit dissapointing from a "Scientist" He goes into great detail describing his current hypothisis but I don't see the relevance of the testing to the hypothisis. He does say the "The following questions will be discussed" which is fine and he does discuss why he thinks this might be a better approach. But why add testing that does not address the majority of the discussion, just to make it look scientific?

  3. #3
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Is this Powerlifting Based Style (PBS) the current hardstyle approach, while the Experimental Based Style (EXP) what might be considered to be "squatting the bell"?

    I am looking forward to what the master RKC's have to say!

  4. #4
    forth is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD52 View Post
    A bit dissapointing from a "Scientist" He goes into great detail describing his current hypothisis but I don't see the relevance of the testing to the hypothisis. He does say the "The following questions will be discussed" which is fine and he does discuss why he thinks this might be a better approach. But why add testing that does not address the majority of the discussion, just to make it look scientific?
    I don't quite follow your thinking here.

    KJ has tested force production on two styles of swings, and presents the result. Also some very relevant discussion on why the results might be as they are. Also he points out that this is nowhere near "serious research" but just an initial test of a hypothesis. Did you even read the Conclusion?

  5. #5
    Rambodoc is offline Senior Member
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    No one owns the truth. KJ presents his findings from his experiments. Whether his methodology is perfect or flawed, whether his results are replicable or contradicted, are all events that will unfold in the future. Till then, we should accept that a learned and expert coach has made some surprising observations that could change the kettlebell swing. The GS people have a totally different style, reflecting the truth that there are many ways to cook a trainee.
    BMI--Fat Loss For Life
    Practising moves (for self-learning) on You Tube: www.youtube.com/thekbdoc

    There is an RKC in every surgeon (like me, as a random example).

  6. #6
    Pavel Tsatsouline Guest

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    Comrades, Kenneth gave me a version of this paper last June. We had a long discussion with the Master RKC team. Here is the summary.

    I am not opposed to a minimal foot turnout—all the way until the feet are facing forward—as long as the girevik has the required mobility. One can get more out of our hips that way, as demonstrated by some 1960s’ and powerlifters and today’s Westsiders: the glutes max. are external hip rotators, as well as extensors, and the toes forward stance prestretches them.

    I agree with Kenneth that loading the foot medially is a good idea, although for other reasons: the mechanoreceptors on the ball of the foot recruit more muscles; the lateral tissues do not get overworked. In the RKC standards we have required for some time that “the heels, toes, and the balls of the feet are planted and the knees track the toes”, now we do it with swings as well. (We do not allow the knees to go in.)

    I see a wide stance as “specialized variety”.

    I agree with Kenneth (and Jeff O’Connor and Geoff Neupert who had brought this up a year earlier) that we should allow some foot dorsiflexion on the eccentric—and we have been doing that for some time, as reflected by our swing testing standard. My own shins are not vertical, as RKC Brandon Hetzler's camera attests. Still, the intention remains: sit back and load the hips. This is a pull, not a squat.

    I agree that this is a good idea for several reasons—but not because of the conjecture that shins vertical swings immobilize the ankles. First, the ground pressure on the mechanoreceptors in the front of the foot turns on the quads. Second, this technique is necessary when swinging a heavy pair of bells (you would fall back with vertical shins and the weight on your heels—this is not a DL) and Com. Jeff has stressed how important it is to keep the technique consistent—with any weight. Third, it helps to prevent “drinky bird swings” in students with long legs and short waists (we don’t want those because the glutes get disabled). Hence in the 2011 edition of the RKC manual you are taught to groove the hinge while keeping your weight on the center of your feet or slightly behind. Thanks to Jeff, Geoff, and Kenneth for this improvement.

    Pavel Sw Brandon copy.jpg

  7. #7
    EricJMoss is offline Senior Member
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    Chief
    Thank you for your insight. Just to let you know that I was able to access the link you posted but it is because I have access to the RKC forum (me being an RKC). Others might not have this luck.
    Eric Moss RKC, FMS
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    Disclaimer: I am not responsible for the words that come out of my mouth or the ones I type and nothing I recommend should be taken as medical advice or even anything intelligent.


  8. #8
    MD52 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by forth View Post

    Did you even read the Conclusion?
    Yes I read the conclusion, but what I did not read was the first page where he states
    "While the structure of this report resembles a scientific paper it should
    NOT be viewed as such."


  9. #9
    deekay is offline Member
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    It's a very interesting paper. I'd like to see more research on kettlebells done, and I'm glad that Kenneth Jay is taking a scientific approach.

  10. #10
    Silverfroth is offline Senior Member
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    So basically the EXP enables you to 'be the Dome'
    Brunalleschi would be so proud.

    Makes sense.
    Enjoy

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