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  1. #11
    stonehousekarate is offline Senior Member
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    Another look at strength is inertia.
    When i would spar a much larger person who may not be as strong as me, I still had to respect thier size.
    There is a difference to a 200lbs person who benches 300 , and a 250lbs person who benches 300.
    I remember pro wrestlers saying how strong the late Aundrey the Giant was, yet he wasn't breaking any power lifting records.
    Football players work on explosive power, not just grinds.
    As a martial artist, I work on athletic strength more than I use too.
    Size from the barbells gave me size, but not the kind of power I was after.
    Al

  2. #12
    Scotsfan is offline Senior Member
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    My $.02 -- don't worry about it and just enjoy the process. The biggest concern should be not getting injured and staying healthy.

  3. #13
    Rich in Nor Cal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
    I agree with you completely!

    What most people need is to be healthy, have good mobility, and be able to do stuff. Huge amounts of strength, while good for the ego, aren't necessary for most folks. Of course, there will always be people who have a need or desire to be as strong as possible.

    I suppose you could argue that, with a minimalist program like ptp, you can always work on increasing your strength and it won't even take that much time.
    That's pretty much what I'm talking about. I do want a higher level of strength than what I have now, but at some point I want to go to a maintenance program. Maybe "limits" is the wrong word, "goals" means about the same thing the way I'm using it. I guess I'm defining my goals in terms of bodyweight and the CC Big 6--OAPU, OAPull, HSPU (two-armed, I don't think the one-armed is realistic for me), pistol, the HLR combined with rollouts, and the bridge (just to #5, the full bridge) combined with deads. The PTTP program sounds really interesting too, but at this point changing goals would feel like changing horses in the middle of the stream--not ready to do that.

  4. #14
    fatman is offline Senior Member
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    Just to clarify, I was not trying to make a "weights are better" point or anything like that. I have just as much respect for someone doing advanced BW progressions as I do for people who can lift a lot of weight. Probably even more, as I fail at one-armed pushups (done with proper form) but can usually hit a 330 lb. BP with strength to spare.

    (I can do quite a few wide-leg, saggy-midsection, Rocky-style OAPUs, though, and most people won't know the difference )

    What I was trying to say is that barbell training and bodyweight exercises can both make you very strong, but there is not much of a cross-over. People, especially those who lift weights and look down on BW exercises, will often sneer at BW feats and follow up by asking "yeah, but how much can he bench press?" Some BW entusiasts will feign to be unimpressed by a big squat, bench press or deadlift and say "yeah, but can he do a one-armed chin-up?" Strength gained by doing one does not translate (significantly) into ability to do the other.
    [URL="http://heavyasareallyheavything.blogspot.com"]Fatman's Training Log[/URL]

  5. #15
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    Just to clarify, I was not trying to make a "weights are better" point or anything like that. I have just as much respect for someone doing advanced BW progressions as I do for people who can lift a lot of weight. Probably even more, as I fail at one-armed pushups (done with proper form) but can usually hit a 330 lb. BP with strength to spare.

    (I can do quite a few wide-leg, saggy-midsection, Rocky-style OAPUs, though, and most people won't know the difference )

    What I was trying to say is that barbell training and bodyweight exercises can both make you very strong, but there is not much of a cross-over. People, especially those who lift weights and look down on BW exercises, will often sneer at BW feats and follow up by asking "yeah, but how much can he bench press?" Some BW entusiasts will feign to be unimpressed by a big squat, bench press or deadlift and say "yeah, but can he do a one-armed chin-up?" Strength gained by doing one does not translate (significantly) into ability to do the other.

    If advanced BW doesn't necessarily cross over to barbell, and advanced barbell doesn't necessarily cross over to BW, which one of them crosses over to the "real world" the most? You know what I am talking about. The odd lifts that make up either manual labor or hobbies that require lifting relatively heavy and bulky objects.

  6. #16
    Rich in Nor Cal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    If advanced BW doesn't necessarily cross over to barbell, and advanced barbell doesn't necessarily cross over to BW, which one of them crosses over to the "real world" the most? You know what I am talking about. The odd lifts that make up either manual labor or hobbies that require lifting relatively heavy and bulky objects.
    I'm not sure of the truth or science behind the relationship between bw exercises and bb exercises, but both a bb and one's body are "relatively heavy and bulky objects."

  7. #17
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich in Nor Cal View Post
    I'm not sure of the truth or science behind the relationship between bw exercises and bb exercises, but both a bb and one's body are "relatively heavy and bulky objects."
    I would disagree. A barbell is ideally shaped to allow someone to lift the heaviest weight possible. It is not difficult to balance. Because of its shape it is easy to keep the center of gravity of the barbell relatively close to the center of gravity of the lifter's body. Which would be easier to lift, a two hundred pound barbell or a two hundred pound man who is resisting you? I heard of a strong man who could lift a live hog under each arm. Now, a hog would be a heavy and bulky object. And don't forget the dry wall. Heavy and bulky.

  8. #18
    305pelusa Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Which would be easier to lift, a two hundred pound barbell or a two hundred pound man who is resisting you?
    I'll ignore the "resisting" part. Dry walls will not resist you, per se. Secondly, you gotta define what a "lift" is in your mind. For my answer, I'll say lifting is placing the object overhead.

    Thus, as far as your question goes, I'd say it's easier to lift the guy. Squat a bit to where his hips are, grab a hold of them, and throw his weight a bit backwards while you stand up (how a fireman would carry a person).
    To lift the BB though, you would have to snatch it. And snatching 200 lbs is A LOT harder than doing that above.

    Now, if you could grab the BB from a Power Rack, then yes, it's easier. But lifting a BB from the ground is DEFINITELY very awkward since the center of gravity is so low (you can't place yourself between it and the floor).
    Granted, the BB is easier to DL than DL the same amount of weight from a fat guy. That's why you have to define the "lift".
    And the argument wasn't BB vs awkward objects anyways. It was the carryover between BB or BW TO awkward objects.
    Last edited by 305pelusa; 05-29-2011 at 06:41 PM.

  9. #19
    joerevans is offline Senior Member
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    Strength is strength.
    It really doesn't matter how you acquire it.
    That being said, the way you train is ultimately going to affect the results. Body weight push-ups, by it's nature is going to facilitate core development which is something that isn't going to develop if all you do is a bench press. So, when it comes time to move something where you aren't lying on your back and pushing straight up, which training is going to have the advantage?
    Still, most weight routines will incorporate large compound movements to help develop core (as long as you don't use a belt), deadlift, squat, clean etc. These develop strength in a linear plane using the entire body, both legs, both arms creating a "balance" in the workout. Bodyweight, in order to develop adequate resistance forces you to move to single arm or leg exercises when you progress past "stereo" stages. This forces your body to find it's own balance increasing body awareness. Additionally, as you increase the difficulty of a bodyweight push or pull, you more fully integrate your full body into the exercise, for example, a planche push-up is not just a push-up any more than a stand to stand bridge is just a back exercise...

    As for translating from bodyweight to BB... There is a translation. Is it as clean as the math people are throwing around... no, not even close, but if you can do a clean 10 prison OHPush like in CC, you are going to be able to move a pretty heavy BB.
    Last edited by joerevans; 05-29-2011 at 06:58 PM.
    [URL]http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/joerevans/[/URL]

    CC Progress
    Pullups 4 Handstand 4 Pushups 9 Squats 9 Leg Raises 10 Bridge 10

  10. #20
    305pelusa Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by joerevans View Post
    Body weight push-ups, by it's nature is going to facilitate core development which is something that isn't going to develop if all you do is a bench press
    I think I just learned something today.

    Quote Originally Posted by joerevans View Post
    Still, most weight routines will incorporate large compound movements to help develop core (as long as you don't use a belt), deadlift, squat, clean etc.
    Scratch that. I just learned TWO thing today.


    Something tells me that Benching 400 lbs will develop the Core, and DL 600 with a belt will do so to. Then again, my experience with free weights is practically non-existent, so I won't jump to conclusions XD
    Last edited by 305pelusa; 05-29-2011 at 07:12 PM.

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