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  1. #21
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 305pelusa View Post
    I'd say it's easier to lift the guy. Squat a bit to where his hips are, grab a hold of them, and throw his weight a bit backwards while you stand up (how a fireman would carry a person).
    To lift the BB though, you would have to snatch it. And snatching 200 lbs is A LOT harder than doing that above..
    Then why not have the man lie down on the floor and snatch him overhead? Do you really think that picking up a 200 pound man is easier than a 200 pound barbell? Or if you want to do a squat with the man, then do a squat with a barbell for a comparison. The barbell is still easier. And the man is still bulkier.

    The original OP was about the limits of BW exercise. This inevitably leads to a discussion about the benefits of BW vs weighted exercise. For me it all comes down to which will prepare someone more effectively for what they do outside of their training. Is you training a means to some other end, or is your training an end unto itself?

  2. #22
    joerevans is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 305pelusa View Post
    I think I just learned something today.



    Scratch that. I just learned TWO thing today.


    Something tells me that Benching 400 lbs will develop the Core, and DL 600 with a belt will do so to. Then again, my experience with free weights is practically non-existent, so I won't jump to conclusions XD
    You are right, they will develop the core, slowly. You can't go heavy without the core being solid. But the bench is an isolation exercise focusing on the chest and tris, not the total body. The core is going to develop slowly if you aren't incorporating other exercises and your bench will stall sooner.
    The belt and the power shirts are cheats. They facilitate a heavy lift by reinforcing the core and taking a significant amount of the strain, reducing the requirement for adaptation.
    Can you equal your 600lb deadlift without the belt? Does your 600lbs deadlift and 400 lbs bench equate to being able to accomplish a planche push-up or a front lever row...
    Yes, I'm comparing apples and oranges, but your rebuttal indicates you got your 400lb un-belted bench by eating apples only. We both know that isn't true.
    [URL]http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/joerevans/[/URL]

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  3. #23
    Rich in Nor Cal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I would disagree. A barbell is ideally shaped to allow someone to lift the heaviest weight possible. It is not difficult to balance. Because of its shape it is easy to keep the center of gravity of the barbell relatively close to the center of gravity of the lifter's body. Which would be easier to lift, a two hundred pound barbell or a two hundred pound man who is resisting you? I heard of a strong man who could lift a live hog under each arm. Now, a hog would be a heavy and bulky object. And don't forget the dry wall. Heavy and bulky.
    I'm not speaking of moving someone else's body, but rather moving one's own body. One's own body is relatively large and bulky, but moving it is different than moving someone else's, since one is closer to one's own center of gravity. That's one of the main reasons why bodyweight exercises are generally safer than barbell ones. And bars are used in some bodyweight exercises, as in pull ups and hanging leg raises.

    But I concede that a barbell has much greater weight potential than one's body. So where do you stop going for strength, at 500 lbs? at 1000 lbs? more? How much time and effort do you want to spend going from a 600 lb DL to a 650 lb one? I understand you may be heavily into PRs or competitive PL, or have another reason to go that heavy, but I don't. If I can DL 2x my bw 5 times, I'd rather spend more time on other things and just do enough work to maintain that level of strength.

    I'm not knocking people who want to keep getting stronger for whatever reason, but for me bw is a convenient reference point for a goal. When I can do 10 OAPUs, then I just want to go to maintaining that strength, not trying to increase it. I would rather spend more time on passing the SST, hitting PRs with the shot, doing a triathlon, etc.

  4. #24
    SThom27 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    It will make you incredibly strong, just not capable of bench pressing big weights. Just like benching big weights will not improve your one-arm pushup power at all. Zero carryover between the two.
    First, this is wrong. There is carryover between benching big weights and improving your one-arm pushup power. What you're ignoring is the HUUUUGE core component of a OAPU. This is something that isn't nearly as important in the bench press. Not to mention the skill involved in a OAPU. Bench pressing won't grease the groove of a OAPU. But, to say there is zero carryover is just wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    So in effect you can say that doing a pistol with each leg equals doing a BB back squat with bodyweight. Back squatting bodyweight will not produce a lot of strength or muscular development; in fact, it will not do much for the lifter at all.
    Second, wrong again. Back squatting bodyweight won't do much for the lifter at all? I know of bodybuilders who produce massive, vascular, muscular legs doing little more than a high number or medium-rep sets of parallel squats with nothing more than 225lbs. on their back. Strength may not increase much, but muscular development does. And if strength endurance is valued over max strength, say in a military setting, than these sets, with little more than bodyweight, are extremely beneficial. So, yes, back squatting bodyweight will produce muscular development and can be extremely beneficial for the lifter.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    If you want to get strong at lifting weights, you have to lift weights.
    Third, given how you've demonstrated that you care for nothing more than powerlifting-style training, and an ability to recycle debunked myths, I have to question your use of this almost cliched phrase. Yes, to lift a lot you have to lift a lot. But, not everyone wants to lift a lot, not everyone needs to lift a lot, and you can make great gains without lifting a lot. Goals are dependent on the individual and strength is relative. Making hardline blanket statements like you have is just wrong.

    I'm surprised this thread has gone this long without pointing out the fallacies inherent in your statements.

    Let me make it clear, if you want to get better at OAPU's, doing heavy benches won't help a lot. Doing more OAPU's will. If you want to build up to a really big back squat, then do back squats, not pistols. But, pistols are a great exercise with benefits beyond pure back squat strength that does carryover, such as hip and ankle flexibility. And, no matter what, arm and chest strength are essential to doing a OAPU, so benching can help.

  5. #25
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich in Nor Cal View Post
    I'm not speaking of moving someone else's body, but rather moving one's own body. One's own body is relatively large and bulky, but moving it is different than moving someone else's, since one is closer to one's own center of gravity. That's one of the main reasons why bodyweight exercises are generally safer than barbell ones. And bars are used in some bodyweight exercises, as in pull ups and hanging leg raises.

    But I concede that a barbell has much greater weight potential than one's body. So where do you stop going for strength, at 500 lbs? at 1000 lbs? more? How much time and effort do you want to spend going from a 600 lb DL to a 650 lb one? I understand you may be heavily into PRs or competitive PL, or have another reason to go that heavy, but I don't. If I can DL 2x my bw 5 times, I'd rather spend more time on other things and just do enough work to maintain that level of strength.

    I'm not knocking people who want to keep getting stronger for whatever reason, but for me bw is a convenient reference point for a goal. When I can do 10 OAPUs, then I just want to go to maintaining that strength, not trying to increase it. I would rather spend more time on passing the SST, hitting PRs with the shot, doing a triathlon, etc.
    That wasn't really the point of my post. I was asking if one or the the other had better carryover to doing things in the real world outside of training, not just getting better at your gym lifts for their own sake.

  6. #26
    305pelusa Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    Then why not have the man lie down on the floor and snatch him overhead? Do you really think that picking up a 200 pound man is easier than a 200 pound barbell? Or if you want to do a squat with the man, then do a squat with a barbell for a comparison. The barbell is still easier. And the man is still bulkier.
    Oh OK then. If you had to snatch both, then yes
    Totally agree with you now.

  7. #27
    Rich in Nor Cal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    That wasn't really the point of my post. I was asking if one or the the other had better carryover to doing things in the real world outside of training, not just getting better at your gym lifts for their own sake.
    Thanks for the clarification. It was getting late and my mind was a little slow in catching that.

    In my opinion, bw will have more carryover, since it involves more balance and stabilization effort.

  8. #28
    fatman is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SThom27 View Post
    First, this is wrong. There is carryover between benching big weights and improving your one-arm pushup power. What you're ignoring is the HUUUUGE core component of a OAPU. This is something that isn't nearly as important in the bench press. Not to mention the skill involved in a OAPU. Bench pressing won't grease the groove of a OAPU. But, to say there is zero carryover is just wrong.
    I stated there is no significant carryover. If you trained both you would actually know that. As you probably don't (judgning from your comment on core involvement in the bench press), sorry if I can't explain this to you better. Maybe give these two exercises a (honest) try and draw your own conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by SThom27 View Post
    Second, wrong again. Back squatting bodyweight won't do much for the lifter at all? I know of bodybuilders who produce massive, vascular, muscular legs doing little more than a high number or medium-rep sets of parallel squats with nothing more than 225lbs. on their back.
    On this one you're talking out of your ass. If you actually ever trained with bodybuilders, you would have seen tham a) either not using back squats at all and building massive legs through leg presses and leg extensions, etc., or b) using much more than baby weights for squats. If you know of any bodybuilder who build his legs with medium-rep sets of 225 lbs., please point him out. Otherwise please stop posting about something you have no clue about. Squats and leg-building very obviously being one of those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by SThom27 View Post
    Third, given how you've demonstrated that you care for nothing more than powerlifting-style training, and an ability to recycle debunked myths, I have to question your use of this almost cliched phrase.
    I do care for training methods that do not involve weights. I am not recycling debunked myths, simply re-iterating my stance regarding the law of specificity, which is commonly accepted by people who actually train with any degree of seriousness.

    You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a profound ignorance of increasing one's strength with weights, which leads me to wonder why you bothered replying to my post in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by SThom27 View Post
    But, not everyone wants to lift a lot, not everyone needs to lift a lot, and you can make great gains without lifting a lot. Goals are dependent on the individual and strength is relative. Making hardline blanket statements like you have is just wrong.
    ????

    Isn't that exactly what I wrote? Weight-lifting is not the end-all training method, and many people do not define their goals in line with weight-lifting. Strength is relative, i.e. a great one-arm pushup performance will not make one strong in the bench press and vice versa. How are any of those statements "hardlione" or "blanket"? Did you even read my post?

    Quote Originally Posted by SThom27 View Post
    I'm surprised this thread has gone this long without pointing out the fallacies inherent in your statements.
    With you being unable to point out these alleged fallacies in my statements, merely asserting your rather complete ignorance of barbell training, I'm surprised you even bothered with such a long post.
    [URL="http://heavyasareallyheavything.blogspot.com"]Fatman's Training Log[/URL]

  9. #29
    Rich in Nor Cal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    I stated there is no significant carryover. If you trained both you would actually know that. As you probably don't (judgning from your comment on core involvement in the bench press), sorry if I can't explain this to you better. Maybe give these two exercises a (honest) try and draw your own conclusions. On this one you're talking out of your ass. If you actually ever trained with bodybuilders, you would have seen tham a) either not using back squats at all and building massive legs through leg presses and leg extensions, etc., or b) using much more than baby weights for squats. If you know of any bodybuilder who build his legs with medium-rep sets of 225 lbs., please point him out. Otherwise please stop posting about something you have no clue about. Squats and leg-building very obviously being one of those things. I do care for training methods that do not involve weights. I am not recycling debunked myths, simply re-iterating my stance regarding the law of specificity, which is commonly accepted by people who actually train with any degree of seriousness. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a profound ignorance of increasing one's strength with weights, which leads me to wonder why you bothered replying to my post in the first place. ???? Isn't that exactly what I wrote? Weight-lifting is not the end-all training method, and many people do not define their goals in line with weight-lifting. Strength is relative, i.e. a great one-arm pushup performance will not make one strong in the bench press and vice versa. How are any of those statements "hardlione" or "blanket"? Did you even read my post? With you being unable to point out these alleged fallacies in my statements, merely asserting your rather complete ignorance of barbell training, I'm surprised you even bothered with such a long post.
    Fatman, could you provide your sources for your claims, links to studies comparing crossover effect, or lack of it, between bw exercises and bb exercises, etc.? I would like see what the science on this is.
    Last edited by Rich in Nor Cal; 05-30-2011 at 09:59 AM.

  10. #30
    fatman is offline Senior Member
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    As far as I know, no one has ever done a study on the carryover between BW exercises and weightlifting.

    Certainly a BW-trained man with no lifting experience will be able to lift far more weight the first time he tries than someone who has not done ANY training ever, but that's not really what we're talking about.

    What I do know is that I have yet to hear of someone using one-arm pushups to (successfully) improve their bench press. Or squatters relying on pistols to improve their squatting power (although some use pistols for GPP training). Incidentally I also don't think that gymnasts train on the three powerlifts to improve their gymnastic performance.

    I also don't get why we need to express one type of strength in terms of the other - why compare OAPUs with bench presses in the first place? If you want to know your BP strength, get under a bar and bench press it.

    I have personally never done only BW training for extensive periods of time, so I can't say either way. What I can say is that at one time I improved my BP by over 50 lbs. and I was no closer to a one-armed pushup than I had been before - in fact it felt harder, as I had stopped practicing it. Take that for what it's worth (or not)
    [URL="http://heavyasareallyheavything.blogspot.com"]Fatman's Training Log[/URL]

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