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  1. #31
    Rich in Nor Cal is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    As far as I know, no one has ever done a study on the carryover between BW exercises and weightlifting.

    Certainly a BW-trained man with no lifting experience will be able to lift far more weight the first time he tries than someone who has not done ANY training ever, but that's not really what we're talking about.

    What I do know is that I have yet to hear of someone using one-arm pushups to (successfully) improve their bench press. Or squatters relying on pistols to improve their squatting power (although some use pistols for GPP training). Incidentally I also don't think that gymnasts train on the three powerlifts to improve their gymnastic performance.

    I also don't get why we need to express one type of strength in terms of the other - why compare OAPUs with bench presses in the first place? If you want to know your BP strength, get under a bar and bench press it.

    I have personally never done only BW training for extensive periods of time, so I can't say either way. What I can say is that at one time I improved my BP by over 50 lbs. and I was no closer to a one-armed pushup than I had been before - in fact it felt harder, as I had stopped practicing it. Take that for what it's worth (or not)
    Now that you mention gymnastics, I think coach Sommers mentions one of his gymnasts who had a bench press, I think it was, of 400 lbs as a freshman in high school, who had never touched a barbell, at a body weight of about 150 lbs. Coach Wade also mentions that he won an overhead pressing contest in prison with a press of about 450 lbs using only bodyweight exercises, beating out other prisoners who had been working out with barbells.

    But that's all anecdotal. The main thing is, what are your goals and what are your preferences--working out at home or at a gym, alone or with spotters, powerlifting contests or general overall strength, etc? We are all different, and so we make different choices. Some may choose only kb's, some may choose only barbells, some may choose bodyweight work. Some may choose mixes of all the above. I respect everyone's right to choose, I'm just saying right now I'm choosing mostly bodyweight and I like how it sets limits and goals for me. Maybe next year, I'll want to do powerlifting. I doubt it, but if I do, I'll work at that.

    Anyway, thank you for your responses. I learned more than I expected when I started the post. I hope we all find success on whatever path we choose.

  2. #32
    SThom27 is offline Senior Member
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    Here we go again with the absolutes. I'm glad the world you live in is so black and white. The rest of us have to live in the grey areas. /sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    I stated there is no significant carryover. If you trained both you would actually know that. As you probably don't (judgning from your comment on core involvement in the bench press), sorry if I can't explain this to you better. Maybe give these two exercises a (honest) try and draw your own conclusions.
    Wrong at the start. Here is what you did say:

    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    It will make you incredibly strong, just not capable of bench pressing big weights. Just like benching big weights will not improve your one-arm pushup power at all. Zero carryover between the two.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but "zero carryover between the two" doesn't mean the same as "no significant carryover between the two."

    And, unless you mean to imply that core involvement is the same on the OAPU and the bench press, you're ignoring a major part of why the OAPU is so hard. Sure, there's a core component in the bench, but you're laying flat on a bench. The core component of a OAPU is massive in comparison. So, yeah, there's a big difference in core recruitment between the bench press and the OAPU.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    On this one you're talking out of your ass. If you actually ever trained with bodybuilders, you would have seen tham a) either not using back squats at all and building massive legs through leg presses and leg extensions, etc., or b) using much more than baby weights for squats. If you know of any bodybuilder who build his legs with medium-rep sets of 225 lbs., please point him out. Otherwise please stop posting about something you have no clue about. Squats and leg-building very obviously being one of those things.
    Here we go with the absolutes. So, you've seen a few bodybuilders in the gym. And, it's true that many bodybuilders do train this way. But, not all. Better yet, most people who train with weights aren't bodybuilders, and yet, they want to get bigger muscles. They follow things like Starting Strength and StrongLifts 5x5, Wendler's, MadCow, the Texas Method, etc. These are all powerlifting based programs, which build strength and increase musculature. But, sure, in your world of absolutes, only bodybuilders train to get big and they only do leg presses and leg extensions.

    Also, Toney Freeman. Look him up.

    And, baby weights?! Seriously?! I do realize that there are many strong people in this forum. However, for the vast majority of people, 225lbs isn't "baby weights." In fact, a great many people struggle for months or even years to build up to being able to back squat 225lbs. Should we demean their struggle by calling it "baby weights"? Maybe you would like to call overweight people fatties? Maybe people who can't bench their bodyweight should be called sissies?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatman View Post
    I do care for training methods that do not involve weights. I am not recycling debunked myths, simply re-iterating my stance regarding the law of specificity, which is commonly accepted by people who actually train with any degree of seriousness.

    You, on the other hand, have demonstrated a profound ignorance of increasing one's strength with weights, which leads me to wonder why you bothered replying to my post in the first place.



    ????

    Isn't that exactly what I wrote? Weight-lifting is not the end-all training method, and many people do not define their goals in line with weight-lifting. Strength is relative, i.e. a great one-arm pushup performance will not make one strong in the bench press and vice versa. How are any of those statements "hardlione" or "blanket"? Did you even read my post?

    With you being unable to point out these alleged fallacies in my statements, merely asserting your rather complete ignorance of barbell training, I'm surprised you even bothered with such a long post.
    Realizing your an elite individual whose strength is beyond normal men, I think you might have forgotten that most people aren't massively strong. /sarcasm

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