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  1. #1
    Reinhardt is offline Senior Member
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    Default combining barbell and kettlebell lifts

    Comrades!

    I wonder how to combine barbell and kb lifting when training for strength endurance. Is it better to use the barbell lifts to develop max strength and hope that this strength gains carry over to the kb strength endurance lifts or to train the barbell lifts also for strength endurance?

    In the Russian KB Challenge book, the weigthlifting yearbook programs feature 30 rep barbell squats!

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    speaker is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
    Comrades!

    I wonder how to combine barbell and kb lifting when training for strength endurance. Is it better to use the barbell lifts to develop max strength and hope that this strength gains carry over to the kb strength endurance lifts or to train the barbell lifts also for strength endurance?

    In the Russian KB Challenge book, the weigthlifting yearbook programs feature 30 rep barbell squats!

    What do you think?
    Dan John has complexes at his site; www.danjohn.net A wealth on info in his articles as well, but, find his complexes on the main page I believe. Also, Pat Flynn has some great info regarding KB complexes.
    http://www.chroniclesofstrength.com/index.html

    These two resources should give you plenty.

    Good Luck

  3. #3
    David C. is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
    Comrades!

    I wonder how to combine barbell and kb lifting when training for strength endurance. Is it better to use the barbell lifts to develop max strength and hope that this strength gains carry over to the kb strength endurance lifts or to train the barbell lifts also for strength endurance?

    In the Russian KB Challenge book, the weigthlifting yearbook programs feature 30 rep barbell squats!

    What do you think?
    There is very little carryover from strength to strength endurance to general endurance. There just isn't much at all. I wrote specifically about the lack of correlation between maximal strength and kettlebell sport in this blog post.
    The only reason to do barbell and other non-kb lifts for kettlebell sport is for GPP, or for some very specific SPP.
    For kettlebell lifters, I think high rep jump squats is the best barbell exercise (at least 30 reps, usually more) from a sports application perspective. Otherwise, A moderate intensity 15-20 min GPP circuit is all that is needed. The circuit really is a means of injury prevention and a way to keep conditioning up without causing overuse injuries that could result from merely doing more GS lifts.
    I think its also significant that few people need true maximal strength training for daily living. High-rep KB training has more carryover to daily "strength" tasks (furniture moving, carrying children, loading luggage, opening jar lids, tightening screws, etc) than training maximal strength training via the power lifts and similar movements. Strength training is necessary, but the threshold for what that is for daily life is much lower than what is strength training for athletics.
    For both daily life and for kettlebell lifting, hi-rep is the way to go. By the way, its not uncommon for Russian GS champ Sergey Rachinsky to deadlift or squat for 300 reps or more.
    [URL]http://southernkettlebeller.blogspot.com/[/URL]

  4. #4
    thegym00 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
    Comrades!

    I wonder how to combine barbell and kb lifting when training for strength endurance. Is it better to use the barbell lifts to develop max strength and hope that this strength gains carry over to the kb strength endurance lifts or to train the barbell lifts also for strength endurance?

    In the Russian KB Challenge book, the weigthlifting yearbook programs feature 30 rep barbell squats!

    What do you think?
    At my gym we use 20 rep squats "the bear" (bill starr version) and the prowlers and sleds for conditioning work in addition to the kettlebell swings and snatches seems to work well for training wrestlers and football players,

  5. #5
    Reinhardt is offline Senior Member
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    Ok, high reps.
    Overhead Squats or Back Squats?
    Sumo DLs or Romanian Dls?

    I quess 20 reps in the overhead squat with bodyweigt would be a very worthy goal.
    But for the others?

  6. #6
    thegym00 is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
    Ok, high reps.
    Overhead Squats or Back Squats?
    Sumo DLs or Romanian Dls?

    I quess 20 reps in the overhead squat with bodyweigt would be a very worthy goal.
    But for the others?

    I have always used regular back squats the ultimate goal is 100lbs over bodyweight which I keep a board on the wall for....6 people have made it to date

  7. #7
    shmathews is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David C. View Post
    There is very little carryover from strength to strength endurance to general endurance. There just isn't much at all. I wrote specifically about the lack of correlation between maximal strength and kettlebell sport in this blog post.
    The only reason to do barbell and other non-kb lifts for kettlebell sport is for GPP, or for some very specific SPP.
    For kettlebell lifters, I think high rep jump squats is the best barbell exercise (at least 30 reps, usually more) from a sports application perspective. Otherwise, A moderate intensity 15-20 min GPP circuit is all that is needed. The circuit really is a means of injury prevention and a way to keep conditioning up without causing overuse injuries that could result from merely doing more GS lifts.
    I think its also significant that few people need true maximal strength training for daily living. High-rep KB training has more carryover to daily "strength" tasks (furniture moving, carrying children, loading luggage, opening jar lids, tightening screws, etc) than training maximal strength training via the power lifts and similar movements. Strength training is necessary, but the threshold for what that is for daily life is much lower than what is strength training for athletics.
    For both daily life and for kettlebell lifting, hi-rep is the way to go. By the way, its not uncommon for Russian GS champ Sergey Rachinsky to deadlift or squat for 300 reps or more.
    David,
    Can you clarify this? I'm thinking specifically of the olympic lifts here. Let's say I'm a gs athlete jerking two 24k kettlebells- that's 106 pounds. Let's say that I can clean and jerk a 100k barbell through consistent strength practice with a barbell. All else being equal, does it not make sense that I should be able to do more kettlebell jerks than if I could only clean and jerk 75k? It seems that the smaller the percentage of your 1rm you are using in a similar lift, the greater number of times you can lift it. In this example, the lifter is using about half his 1 rm for his kettlebell jerks. It seems that you are expending less of your reserve of strength with each rep, because you have the strength potential to lift so much more weight. Would it be safe to say that Ivan Denisov can snatch the 24k for hundreds of reps because in addition to efficent technique and world class conditioning, he's very, very strong?

    A sincere question from an aspiring gs athlete- not a challenge. Any clarification would be great.
    Shmathews

    "Remember too, that I seek neither your approval nor to influence you towards my way of thinking."-- Bruce Lee, [I]Liberate Yourself from Classical Karate[/I]

  8. #8
    David C. is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shmathews View Post
    David,
    Can you clarify this? I'm thinking specifically of the olympic lifts here. Let's say I'm a gs athlete jerking two 24k kettlebells- that's 106 pounds. Let's say that I can clean and jerk a 100k barbell through consistent strength practice with a barbell. All else being equal, does it not make sense that I should be able to do more kettlebell jerks than if I could only clean and jerk 75k? It seems that the smaller the percentage of your 1rm you are using in a similar lift, the greater number of times you can lift it. In this example, the lifter is using about half his 1 rm for his kettlebell jerks. It seems that you are expending less of your reserve of strength with each rep, because you have the strength potential to lift so much more weight. Would it be safe to say that Ivan Denisov can snatch the 24k for hundreds of reps because in addition to efficent technique and world class conditioning, he's very, very strong?

    A sincere question from an aspiring gs athlete- not a challenge. Any clarification would be great.
    Hey. Think of it in these terms:
    The 5k is the running event equivalent of GS (roughly speaking; WR 5k time is 12:37; GS event is limited to 10:00).
    What is the correlation between maximal squat strength and 5k running times? Minimal, if anything. Probably zero.
    In this blog post I cited this article by Rudnev and Lopatin. Remember, Lopatin is a multiple world record holder in GS, but he cannot meet the minimum generally accepted maximal strength standards for a beginner GS athlete. Rudnev and Lopatin's findings turned conventional GS wisdom upside down. But they are what they are. To my knowledge, their findings have not been disputed, and Rudnev is one of the most respected GS coaches and competitors in Russia. Many would argue that he is the top GS coach in Russia.
    To me, the most startling finding in their research was the lack of correlation of strength endurance to GS. I was not expecting that.
    It took reading their study several times for me to fully grasp the import of their findings.
    [URL]http://southernkettlebeller.blogspot.com/[/URL]

  9. #9
    David C. is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt View Post
    Ok, high reps.
    Overhead Squats or Back Squats?
    Sumo DLs or Romanian Dls?

    I quess 20 reps in the overhead squat with bodyweigt would be a very worthy goal.
    But for the others?
    For SPP I would recommend very high rep jump squats.
    For GPP, I would recommend either low to moderate rep back barbell squats for injury prevention, or as a part of a circuit training routine.
    I have not successfully integrated hi-rep grinds the way Rachinsky does. But he does back squats to just below parallel. He also demonstrates jump squats with a single kettlebell on one's back. He squats to a deeper depth in these than in regular barbell jump squats (which, in depth, are more like hops than squats).
    [URL]http://southernkettlebeller.blogspot.com/[/URL]

  10. #10
    shmathews is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David C. View Post
    Hey. Think of it in these terms:
    The 5k is the running event equivalent of GS (roughly speaking; WR 5k time is 12:37; GS event is limited to 10:00).
    What is the correlation between maximal squat strength and 5k running times? Minimal, if anything. Probably zero.
    In this blog post I cited this article by Rudnev and Lopatin. Remember, Lopatin is a multiple world record holder in GS, but he cannot meet the minimum generally accepted maximal strength standards for a beginner GS athlete. Rudnev and Lopatin's findings turned conventional GS wisdom upside down. But they are what they are. To my knowledge, their findings have not been disputed, and Rudnev is one of the most respected GS coaches and competitors in Russia. Many would argue that he is the top GS coach in Russia.
    To me, the most startling finding in their research was the lack of correlation of strength endurance to GS. I was not expecting that.
    It took reading their study several times for me to fully grasp the import of their findings.
    David,
    Thanks. I'll take a look at the study. I've seen it before, but did not study it in detail. I was reading an interview with Ivan Denisov. Here are a few excerpts:

    "This year you competed again after a two-year break. How was this time without competing? Was it hard to get back to a platform again?

    - A two-year break was only for big events. I have performed on lower level competitions. I have consistently participated in the city competitions of basketball, and various crosses. However, the march on the big stage has been somewhat forgotten. To increase interest and adrenaline I reduced my weight by 8 kg, and was classified for "up to 105 kg" category. I had a heavy workload in the past two years. I have worked out with barbell, ran, and skied. I became much stronger than two years ago."

    This is where I got the idea that Denisov's success was partly attributable to his strength.

    He aslo said: "The system includes continuity in training process, the close relationship of general and specialized training, and educated planning of sport trainings. I would not recommend young athletes, who got to like KBs, but still have loose body, constantly exercising with kettlebells. Boys and girls must gain large amounts of the general loads before they take the heavy kettlebells in hands. Why is it better to not take KBs at all? Simply because after a short time the temptation to lift heavier kettlebells to check your body for strength will overcome common sence (sic), especially now when we have new rules for CMS - 32kg for men (boys) and 24kg for women (girls). The world practice of trainings shows that the young champions very rarely become champions in adult age. But do not compare GS with other sports. It is still at the development stage. We have really good results only in certain weight categories."

    So, Denisov seems to think that new GS athletes need to spend time under the lighter bells before they mess with heavy weights, but he did barbell work to gain strength during his layoff. He also thinks that these principles are not universally true across weight classes.

    The interview is here: http://www.girevik-online.com/news/4...sovs-interview

    Interesting stuff. Thanks for the discussion.
    Shmathews

    "Remember too, that I seek neither your approval nor to influence you towards my way of thinking."-- Bruce Lee, [I]Liberate Yourself from Classical Karate[/I]

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