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  1. #11
    rwleonard is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheBear View Post
    Reading comprehension is important:
    Amen, brother!

  2. #12
    Pats is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 305pelusa View Post
    Side press focuses mostly on the shoulders, triceps, forearm (gripping that so-long-bar), everything that embarks little muscles that tense up around your arm and shoulder (such as the rotator cuffs), lats (especially on the descent), and of course, a strong mid-section-lower body tension. The obliques especially.

    The Bench Press focuses mostly on the pecs for the majority of the rep. Triceps mostly at near the lock-out, Delts, lats when the bar is about to clear your pecs ("flaring the lats" to drive the bar up). Again, the grip muscles (though there isn't as much moving of the bar, the fact that you'll manage more than double the weight than on a SP means that you'll have to grip tightly), and posterior chain+Abs though to the PLing arch.

    They both work pretty much everything when you are practicing full-body tensioning, and squeezing every possible muscle.

    HOWEVER, the BP works the shoulders far more than the SP works the pecs. That's great for someone who doesn't want very developed pecs, but for someone who doesn't mind, the BP will do a great deal for the shoulders (whereas the SP will do little for the pecs).
    On the other hand, the SP works the obliques to a HUGE degree, while the BP doesn't as much. The lats also get to work a lot during the SP (at least if you do it as in PTP). Generally speaking, the BP is more of an upper-body pushing test exercise, while the MP-SP is more of a full-body pushing test exercise.
    Thanks a lot for that clear explanation!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheBear
    I see nothing in this statement that even implies that Pavel prefers the BP to the SP. He would make the substitution simply for convenience of the readers since the BP is a more popular exercise than the SP.
    Sorry about that, not American so English is not my first language.
    Which is why I'm surprised at the importance given to the BP in the US. Shouldn't the DL have that place of honor?
    I hate Bench Pressing frankly and I'm glad that I misunderstood what Pavel said!

  3. #13
    Steve Freides is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussieluke View Post
    Surely the standing barbell (military) press is the answer...?
    Another lift that most folks don't do nowadays. Also problematic because those who don't know how to protect their lower backs can hurt them, people can't get the rack position right, etc. I agree it's a great lift, however.

    -S-
    http;//www.kbnj.com/flexguide.htm

  4. #14
    Pats is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFreides View Post
    Another lift that most folks don't do nowadays. Also problematic because those who don't know how to protect their lower backs can hurt them, people can't get the rack position right, etc. I agree it's a great lift, however.

    -S-
    http;//www.kbnj.com/flexguide.htm
    Yes, a great exercise for sure but like you described, a bit hard to learn without proper coaching.
    I tried it, it didn't feel right, one of the reasons I was asking about the Side Press.

  5. #15
    aussieluke is offline Senior Member
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    The barbell military press is surely one of the most basic, fundamental lifts there is.

    More simple than the kettlebell press, even.

    There are some great instructional videos by Mark Rippetoe on YouTube, or even better, get his book Starting Strength.

    And the rack position is not the same as it is for jerks or push presses - it really shouldn't be a problem.

  6. #16
    MikeTheBear is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pats View Post
    Thanks a lot for that clear explanation!



    Sorry about that, not American so English is not my first language.
    Which is why I'm surprised at the importance given to the BP in the US. Shouldn't the DL have that place of honor?
    I hate Bench Pressing frankly and I'm glad that I misunderstood what Pavel said!
    Then I apologize for being a bit harsh.

    Some people may disagree with me, but I see PTP as a system that can be applied to any exercise other than the Olympic lifts (more on this later). I've done it for squats, bench, military press, and Romanian deadlift. I've heard people say that if you aren't doing deadlift and side press then "You aren't doing PTP." I disagree. Pick the exercises you like best and do them.

    Pavel himself has written on here that PTP will not work for the Olympic lifts and I can understand why. But I think the principles can be applied to just about any "grinding" (non-Olympic lift) movement.

  7. #17
    RJ79 is offline Senior Member
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    I am going to agree with aussieluke here. The overhead press is a basic lift. If your goal is to get strong its worth the effort.

    The problem I have with the side press is the same as the one I have with the 1 arm ohp - you simply don't use as much weight AND you are bullshitting yourself if you think you can simply double the weight you are using and think that is your two arm best. I used 1 arm kb overhead presses exclusively up to the half bw goal which was 44kg/97lbs for me at the time so I do have some experience with what i'm talking about.

    Learning the ohp and the bench press is worth your while if your goal is strength. I didn't like the bench press for a long time and didn't perform it simply because I bought into the nonfunctional bs AND I sucked at it. Actually I wanted to believe it was nonfunctional and didn't create real strength because I sucked at it. Those aren't valid excuses and I have sought to rectify this gaping hole in my programming.

    If you exclude benching AND overhead presses from your strength routine are you really getting strong?

  8. #18
    RJ79 is offline Senior Member
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    I agree with everything Mike just said as well.

  9. #19
    Pats is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheBear View Post
    Then I apologize for being a bit harsh.

    Some people may disagree with me, but I see PTP as a system that can be applied to any exercise other than the Olympic lifts (more on this later). I've done it for squats, bench, military press, and Romanian deadlift. I've heard people say that if you aren't doing deadlift and side press then "You aren't doing PTP." I disagree. Pick the exercises you like best and do them.

    Pavel himself has written on here that PTP will not work for the Olympic lifts and I can understand why. But I think the principles can be applied to just about any "grinding" (non-Olympic lift) movement.
    No apologies necessary and thanks for the tips.
    I'm not doing any Olympic Lifts and don't think I ever will though.
    But I will be applying PTP to the squat and DL for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJ79 View Post
    I am going to agree with aussieluke here. The overhead press is a basic lift. If your goal is to get strong its worth the effort.

    The problem I have with the side press is the same as the one I have with the 1 arm ohp - you simply don't use as much weight AND you are bullshitting yourself if you think you can simply double the weight you are using and think that is your two arm best. I used 1 arm kb overhead presses exclusively up to the half bw goal which was 44kg/97lbs for me at the time so I do have some experience with what i'm talking about.

    Learning the ohp and the bench press is worth your while if your goal is strength. I didn't like the bench press for a long time and didn't perform it simply because I bought into the nonfunctional bs AND I sucked at it. Actually I wanted to believe it was nonfunctional and didn't create real strength because I sucked at it. Those aren't valid excuses and I have sought to rectify this gaping hole in my programming.

    If you exclude benching AND overhead presses from your strength routine are you really getting strong?
    While I'm sure that you know way more than me on strength training and that the BP and OHP is very important to include in one's training, I'm not ready to implement them into my current routine.
    I will make the effort someday though for sure since you guys are saying it's that important.

  10. #20
    WilliamNy is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ79 View Post

    If you exclude benching AND overhead presses from your strength routine are you really getting strong?
    What makes the bench press better than the weighted dip? Loading may eventually become an issue but you will probably be fairly strong by then. Off coarse this is assuming that you need either to be strong although it's easy to see where your coming from.
    Last edited by WilliamNy; 07-29-2011 at 01:08 PM.
    [I]I've done this before[/I]
    [I] and I will do it again.[/I]

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