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  1. #21
    aussieluke is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamNy View Post
    What makes the bench press better than the weighted dip? Loading may eventually become an issue but you will probably be fairly strong by then. Off coarse this is assuming that you need either to be strong although it's easy to see where your coming from.
    Bench press, done properly, is pretty much a full body lift, with your feet driving through the floor, full body tension, and pressing with your entire upper body. You will also be supporting more total load. There is also a clearly defined ROM with the bench press - touching chest to full extension, unlike dips, where the bottom position can be too high, or too low.

  2. #22
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheBear View Post
    Then I apologize for being a bit harsh.

    Some people may disagree with me, but I see PTP as a system that can be applied to any exercise other than the Olympic lifts (more on this later). I've done it for squats, bench, military press, and Romanian deadlift. I've heard people say that if you aren't doing deadlift and side press then "You aren't doing PTP." I disagree. Pick the exercises you like best and do them.

    Pavel himself has written on here that PTP will not work for the Olympic lifts and I can understand why. But I think the principles can be applied to just about any "grinding" (non-Olympic lift) movement.
    In PTP, Pavel recommends a slow grinding style with maximum tension no matter the weight. But, I have also read articles on the DD website that say that a lift should be done with maximum velocity regardless of the weight. So, as weight goes up, velocity goes down.

    Would there be a huge disadvantage to doing the PTP as described in the book, except to perform the lifts with maximum velocity instead of a slow grinding style? The velocity will still much slower than if ballistic exercises are performed, so fast is a relative term. If maximum velocity were used, would the overall time under tension be too small?

  3. #23
    WilliamNy is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussieluke View Post
    Bench press, done properly, is pretty much a full body lift, with your feet driving through the floor, full body tension, and pressing with your entire upper body. You will also be supporting more total load. There is also a clearly defined ROM with the bench press - touching chest to full extension, unlike dips, where the bottom position can be too high, or too low.
    A lot of people might say it's stupid to argue about such things but I'd find it interesting.

    You get a better pec stretch, with the dip. I've been told that you can move more load with the dip when factoring in body weight which supposedly is because you use more muscle. I know that I can move more with the dip and I could before I trained the dip. You can get a beautiful rebound out of the bottom of a dip just like a squat or Kb swing as long as you have the weight balanced correctly under your hands. The range of motion is as clearly defined as the squat with as low as possible being my preference.

    Then you factor in that you are moving your entire body against a fixed point and you have more stabilization going on. Also, your shoulders are not jammed against a bench and can move freely.
    [I]I've done this before[/I]
    [I] and I will do it again.[/I]

  4. #24
    MikeTheBear is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    In PTP, Pavel recommends a slow grinding style with maximum tension no matter the weight. But, I have also read articles on the DD website that say that a lift should be done with maximum velocity regardless of the weight. So, as weight goes up, velocity goes down.

    Would there be a huge disadvantage to doing the PTP as described in the book, except to perform the lifts with maximum velocity instead of a slow grinding style? The velocity will still much slower than if ballistic exercises are performed, so fast is a relative term. If maximum velocity were used, would the overall time under tension be too small?
    I don't know how Pavel would respond to this but I'll tell you my view. I try to lift the weight as fast as possible on all reps without using sloppy form. The acceleration actually creates more muscle tension, i.e., the tension is greater. In order to create more time under tension just do more sets. IMO, you still need to practice total body tension with this style of lifting. I would argue that you need even more total body tension simply because your body will be generating more force, e.g., a 280 lbs. lift done fast would generate forces comparable to a 300 lbs. lift done at a slower tempo.

  5. #25
    aussieluke is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamNy View Post
    A lot of people might say it's stupid to argue about such things but I'd find it interesting.

    You get a better pec stretch, with the dip. I've been told that you can move more load with the dip when factoring in body weight which supposedly is because you use more muscle. I know that I can move more with the dip and I could before I trained the dip. You can get a beautiful rebound out of the bottom of a dip just like a squat or Kb swing as long as you have the weight balanced correctly under your hands. The range of motion is as clearly defined as the squat with as low as possible being my preference.

    Then you factor in that you are moving your entire body against a fixed point and you have more stabilization going on. Also, your shoulders are not jammed against a bench and can move freely.
    I don't see anything wrong with discussing it, but its one of those topics that there will never be a definite answer to.

    You can read about it until the cows come home on the Starting Strength forums - its probably been discussed a billion times, and Rip will have answered it several times himself I'm sure.

    You can of course use the stretch reflex/rebound at the bottom of the bench press too - the bar should touch your shirt, but not your chest (Ie don't use your ribcage's stretch reflex!).

    Really IMO, unless there are specific reasons not to, the bench press AND the press should be part of any barbell training plan. If I was doing PTTP and had the equipment, I would probably do a cycle of one, then a cycle of the other. Though for simplicity, just deadlift and overhead press would cover most bases ...and there's nothing more satisfying that locking out a heavy bar overhead!

  6. #26
    RJ79 is offline Senior Member
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    William dips are great if they don't hurt your shoulders. They have big carryover to the bench press as well. My main point was the overhead press and bench press are two of the biggest compound upper body pushing lifts and to exclude them in a strength program without a good reason probably doesn't make much sense. They are basics that have stood the test of time.

    I wasn't knocking kettlebells either. For strength and conditioning in one package I say they are tough to beat.

  7. #27
    bwwm is offline Senior Member
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    It seems that the 'low gear' approach was certainly Pavel's direction with his earlier books. With Bolton's and others recent emphasis on 'fast gear', it may seem that is the new direction for experienced lifters. I'm wondering if there's not some benefit for beginning and intermediate lifters in focusing on form and tension to maximize safety and performance while there are still gains to be had with 'low gear'.

    I myself am still focused on 'low gear' in my deadlifts and kettlebell presses, except when the rep counts get in the 4 and 5 range, then I speed it up a little, since I'm usually doing 5 sets at that point as well. With pull-ups, it's periodization between 'low gear' and 'fast gear'.

  8. #28
    Jeff is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheBear View Post
    I don't know how Pavel would respond to this but I'll tell you my view. I try to lift the weight as fast as possible on all reps without using sloppy form. The acceleration actually creates more muscle tension, i.e., the tension is greater. In order to create more time under tension just do more sets. IMO, you still need to practice total body tension with this style of lifting. I would argue that you need even more total body tension simply because your body will be generating more force, e.g., a 280 lbs. lift done fast would generate forces comparable to a 300 lbs. lift done at a slower tempo.
    If you lift a weight as fast as possible rather than use a slow grinding style, do you still do PTP with two sets of five or do you increase the volume just a bit?

    Also, when you use the slow grinding style, it is possible to work antagonistic muscles more since it is possible to hold more tension in them. If you lift faster, is it necessary to round out the deadlift and side press with a pullup or row?

  9. #29
    Wild Pegasus is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamNy View Post
    Then you factor in that you are moving your entire body against a fixed point and you have more stabilization going on. Also, your shoulders are not jammed against a bench and can move freely.
    As someone with hilariously delicate shoulders, I've found that both the dip and the bench press work for me, but I have to be extremely careful about my shoulders in both. In the dip, I can't lean forward like a lot of people do. Instant shoulder pain. Instead, I have to stay vertical. That takes a lot of the focus off the chest and puts it on the triceps. With the bench, I have to be very, very careful about not shrugging my left shoulder to jerk the weight up (I generally use DBs, since I don't have a training partner, but it applies to BB benches, too.). For whatever reason, I have very bad shoulder movements on my left side, and I have to watch everything I do there closely.

  10. #30
    MikeTheBear is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    If you lift a weight as fast as possible rather than use a slow grinding style, do you still do PTP with two sets of five or do you increase the volume just a bit?
    If your goal is strength without size then no. The fast tempo will simply teach your nervous system to recruit more motor units more rapidly. If you want hypertrophy then you would need to do more sets, but this would also be true if you were using a slower tempo.

    Also, when you use the slow grinding style, it is possible to work antagonistic muscles more since it is possible to hold more tension in them. If you lift faster, is it necessary to round out the deadlift and side press with a pullup or row?
    I haven't heard this before - that a slower tempo works the antagonists to a greater extent. The deadlift already takes care of the upper back muscles - they are worked statically - so a row or pullup is not absolutely necessary.

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