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  1. #21
    Yorkshirecomrade Guest

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    That aimed towards me renaissance?

    I do believe that the average joe who believes the windmill looks simple and, wait for it, he can see himself in a MIRROR, so he is ok... The snatch is down because the bell doesn't hit the arm.... AND a swing is good if it's not going above the head, will injure themselves at some point, somewhere in the body. I actually lolled at all them statements.

    If the OP is serious and starts building a significant weight, the OP will injure themselves... I'm basing that on the ludicrous statements of the OP. I think anyone (I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone, I'm making an assumption) with any knowledge of human anatomy, mechanics and function would agree.




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  2. #22
    Chris Hansen is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kbSagoo View Post
    Windmills were in Pavel's first book, "Russian Kettlebell Challenge".
    And "From Russia with Tough Love".

  3. #23
    JasonL.Ac. is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
    And "From Russia with Tough Love".
    And neither the original RKC book nor FRWTL are what we typically recommend to beginners nowadays. Times evolve...
    Jason Ginsberg, RKC2, LAc
    [url]http://www.dragondoor.com/instructor/1706[/url]

  4. #24
    kbSagoo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonL.Ac. View Post
    And neither the original RKC book nor FRWTL are what we typically recommend to beginners nowadays. Times evolve...
    Yet still sold on this site and as far as I know the only two official resources I know that speak about the exercise. I know we assume all risk if we follow the methods in these books but might Dragon Door consider updating them if there is a better way to teach it.

    Now let me jump on the other side of the fence and say that having an instructor look and coach this exercise was invaluable to me. As much as I tried to copy the move with the book and youtube vids, a lot of things were wrong. I was initiating the move with more a side bend than with the hips. She was able to clear that up with me and also showed me other drills to clean it up. For me it was better to movement intent vs being a mirror image of the book or vid.

  5. #25
    Chris Hansen is offline Senior Member
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    I think a lot of it depends on the individual. Some people can learn some things on their own and others need more individual coaching.

    As an example: I never had a problem with windmills. An RKC adjusted my stance a little at one point but I never struggled with it. On the other hand, it took a physical therapist to figure out what was going on in my hips, a subtle detail that other professionals missed, which caused me to have so many problems with the deadlift.

  6. #26
    o13starsnstripes is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshirecomrade View Post
    That aimed towards me renaissance?

    I do believe that the average joe who believes the windmill looks simple and, wait for it, he can see himself in a MIRROR, so he is ok... The snatch is down because the bell doesn't hit the arm.... AND a swing is good if it's not going above the head, will injure themselves at some point, somewhere in the body. I actually lolled at all them statements.

    If the OP is serious and starts building a significant weight, the OP will injure themselves... I'm basing that on the ludicrous statements of the OP. I think anyone (I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone, I'm making an assumption) with any knowledge of human anatomy, mechanics and function would agree.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Good physiques are not given. They are forged through time, effort, dedication and hard work.
    Well since your so smart than tell me just what else is there to it? I perform the snatch the way it's suppose to be performed and have practiced enough that the bell doesn't slam against my wrist, the swing isn't suppose to be going over your head as I was told and that it should be as high as eye level, with the windmill when I said a mirror that when I perform it I can stand infront of the mirror to keep an eye on mself to see just what if anything I am doing wrong.

    So please enlighten me and go into detail just how I am going to hurt myself and what is so ludicrous about what I have written?

  7. #27
    johnbeamon is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoplaten View Post
    I must call BS. That's funny.

    I'd say there is a little difference, in that someone is specifically asking for additional help, help that is best given in person, or at least after someone has posted videos from multiple angles. When someone is specifically asking for tweaks - not how the basic movement is performed, but questions about his own specific situation - see an RKC is often the best advice, imho.
    100% agree. Learning the movements is different from troubleshooting and mastery, which absolutely require expert assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonL.Ac. View Post
    And I call BS on your BS. Its not in ETK at all, not in PM, not in ROP, not in the bonus material, and not in the variety day suggestions.
    Then apparently idnrc (I did not remember correctly). Looking back, there's a picture of Sandow doing what looks like a bent press. I think the posture reminded me of someone in the book doing a windmill. My mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonL.Ac. View Post
    Can you learn things by yourself? Sure, absolutely. But if someone thinks the windmill is an easy move, with no technique to it, then they are mistaken, and I see nothing wrong with saying so... just going to youtube and clicking on the first windmill video you see is not a good plan.
    Never suggested the windmill was easy or required no technique. Never suggested being indiscriminate with YouTube or other resources. I suggested that not all our exercises require in-person training to learn to a fairly proficient level.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonL.Ac. View Post
    I don't know of a beginner DVD put out by any current RKC that includes the windmill; which one did you have in mind?
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonL.Ac. View Post
    And neither the original RKC book nor FRWTL are what we typically recommend to beginners nowadays. Times evolve...
    The original RKC book was an introductory text when it was released. It was sort of the only American KB book, so it was assumed its readers would be beginners. MRKC Andrea Du Cane included windmills in both Kettlebell Goddess (the Quick Start Review section that newbies are specifically advised to read) and FRWTL (on the front cover). Both are rated in the Winter 2011 Hardstyle Magazine for Beginner to Mid-Level. Kettlebells for Dummies includes windmills, albeit in the "Advanced" section in Ch. 13. KfD is not even aimed at the audience that would shop at dragondoor.com or go looking for an RKC trainer. That's four books by current RKCs.

    I originally only suggested one point, that because windmills are included in the list of movements taught at the RKC II workshop does NOT mean that their proper execution can only be derived by personal training from an RKC II or one's own RKC II certification. The system teaches swings first, step 1. When you ask MRKCs like Whitley and O'Connor what they're working on lately, they'll say "swings". Are swings a beginner's move or an advanced move? The "windmills in RKC II" argument did not hold water. That move is at most a first cousin of the get-up, and you argued much further than the point I was trying to make.
    [B][URL="http://ironflinger.blogspot.com"]John Beamon[/URL][/B]
    [SIZE=1]
    [SIZE=2] My thread "Guest User? Really" prompted some 6 pages of discussion on why Pavel's user account had been changed to "Guest User" status. John Du Cane answered in a forthright manner, and I thanked him for his professionalism in this very forum.

    That entire thread was removed from the forum on or around August 26. I've been an HKC and an active, outspoken member in good standing for some 3yrs now, but I don't support this sort of censorship. Look for me on the public web.

    -j
    [/SIZE][/SIZE]

  8. #28
    JasonL.Ac. is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbeamon View Post
    100% agree. Learning the movements is different from troubleshooting and mastery, which absolutely require expert assistance.



    Then apparently idnrc (I did not remember correctly). Looking back, there's a picture of Sandow doing what looks like a bent press. I think the posture reminded me of someone in the book doing a windmill. My mistake.



    Never suggested the windmill was easy or required no technique. Never suggested being indiscriminate with YouTube or other resources. I suggested that not all our exercises require in-person training to learn to a fairly proficient level.



    ...



    The original RKC book was an introductory text when it was released. It was sort of the only American KB book, so it was assumed its readers would be beginners. MRKC Andrea Du Cane included windmills in both Kettlebell Goddess (the Quick Start Review section that newbies are specifically advised to read) and FRWTL (on the front cover). Both are rated in the Winter 2011 Hardstyle Magazine for Beginner to Mid-Level. Kettlebells for Dummies includes windmills, albeit in the "Advanced" section in Ch. 13. KfD is not even aimed at the audience that would shop at dragondoor.com or go looking for an RKC trainer. That's four books by current RKCs.

    I originally only suggested one point, that because windmills are included in the list of movements taught at the RKC II workshop does NOT mean that their proper execution can only be derived by personal training from an RKC II or one's own RKC II certification. The system teaches swings first, step 1. When you ask MRKCs like Whitley and O'Connor what they're working on lately, they'll say "swings". Are swings a beginner's move or an advanced move? The "windmills in RKC II" argument did not hold water. That move is at most a first cousin of the get-up, and you argued much further than the point I was trying to make.
    Eh, at this point I think we're talking past each other. I haven't seen the for dummies book or goddess dvd, so didn't know about those, that's a fair point. The point about youtube was based on a comment by the original poster, not you.

    I'm not saying that the windmill shouldn't be attempted by any beginner, or that you can't learn it without an RKC 2. Just that its harder than it looks, and its a deceptively easy move to think you're doing perfectly when you're not. As far as swings being a beginner or advanced move, my answer is "yes".

    I'm already regretting posting anything, really the main thing I wanted to say is that if people want help, all they have to do is post video, and they get tons of coaching from RKCs. That's quite a nice, free, middle ground between "learn on your own" and "pay for a private session with an RKC".
    Jason Ginsberg, RKC2, LAc
    [url]http://www.dragondoor.com/instructor/1706[/url]

  9. #29
    JasonL.Ac. is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by o13starsnstripes View Post
    Well since your so smart than tell me just what else is there to it? I perform the snatch the way it's suppose to be performed and have practiced enough that the bell doesn't slam against my wrist, the swing isn't suppose to be going over your head as I was told and that it should be as high as eye level, with the windmill when I said a mirror that when I perform it I can stand infront of the mirror to keep an eye on mself to see just what if anything I am doing wrong.

    So please enlighten me and go into detail just how I am going to hurt myself and what is so ludicrous about what I have written?
    I'm not person who wrote that, but I'll respond anyway. I can understand the sentiment, even if I might have phrased it a bit differently. Standing in front of a mirror watching yourself do an exercise is not a good plan, especially with the windmill. You're much better off videoing yourself, and then watching it later; and if you have the video, you can post it here and get free feedback and instruction from RKCs (myself included).

    If you're not banging your wrist, that's great, but I would suggest that if you post video of your swings and snatches, we might be able to help you get even more out of the exercise. You've got nothing to lose here; if there's nothing to correct, great, there's one more good example of swings and snatches on youtube to counteract the hundreds if not thousands of crappy ones. Maybe though, your swings and snatches are good, but we can give you some pointers and shortcuts to make them great.
    Jason Ginsberg, RKC2, LAc
    [url]http://www.dragondoor.com/instructor/1706[/url]

  10. #30
    Yorkshirecomrade Guest

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    Ok..... Where to start.

    Can you tell me what's happening with your feet? Where is the weight distributed? What direction are your toes pointing in? What's happening at the knees? Do both remain strongly locked? Both become soft or just one knee softens? What part of your body is initiating the movement? What is going on at the lumbar region? How neutral are you staying? Is the thoracic spine (and the rest of spine) aligned correctly? How's the chest? Big and proud or sunk and hollow? What's the neck up to? Is the shoulder packed? Is the elbow locked or soft? Where are they eyes looking? Where is the kb centred over the top of? How's the breathing? Which part of my body is initiating the movement back to the start? I'm sure if you could answer all them honestly people would know better......OR do what most are suggesting and smash a video on here for experts to look at (me not included).

    I'm not even an HKC so I haven't got a clue how to 'properly' execute the windmill. These are a few of the questions i have asked myself as i watch videos back of myself. I have experimented but have decided to wait until I see my coach to decide on my form. I have been injured in the past (late teens early 20's) and don't want people to make the same mistakes.

    On another note...... Since the turn of 2012 you have initiated threads asking about

    Kettlebell stomp jerk v's double kettlebell jerk

    Double kettlebell clean and press

    15/15 kettlebell snatch interval training

    Kettlebell tricep extension and popping noises

    Workout routines for a busy college student

    Can yoga wreck the body

    Which push ups

    1 side of the body feeling more sore after a workout (kinda worries me after what you say about windmills)

    Kettlebell Hindu squat

    Kettlebell chest press

    15/15 snatch (again)

    CC push up question

    And finally the windmill....

    13 different exercises in roughly 16 weeks. Nearly a new exercise, protocol, regime every weeks. Pick a direction and work towards it.

    Exactly what program are you following? Do you realise that following a program for a period of time is beneficial than tinkering with things constantly??

    Maybe this is why I took the tone I did in replying.

    You obviously want to learn but Rome wasn't built in a day dude. Chill out and stop thinking you have something down. Athletes, professionals and anyone in the training industry with any reputation learn something new every day about themselves and make adjustments with clients and their own bodies. You should be the same. Pick a direction, buy the books, DVDs or whatever, get some help, just put a video on here.


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    Good physiques are not given. They are forged through time, effort, dedication and hard work.
    Last edited by Yorkshirecomrade; 04-06-2012 at 06:55 AM. Reason: spelling

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