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  1. #1
    Karl F. Vorwerk is offline Senior Member
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    Default Female Marine PT test will require pullups instead of flex arm hang.


  2. #2
    Spikeman1444 is offline Senior Member
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    Default

    That's interesting. I guess since they're trying to incorporate women into combat roles more often they would need to pull themselves over obstacles.

  3. #3
    ad5ly is offline Senior Member
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    If there are any women Marines on the forum I would like to hear their input on this. The USMC PFT has allways been a critical component to advancing in rank and directly impacts a career. My guess is that alot of women will suffer from this change - initially. But enough lead time is in the works for those who choose to make the USMC a career for them to train to pass or even excell in this change in the PFT. WOMEN CAN DO PULLUPS! You Marines chime in for input. Is the change related to considering female Marines for combat MOS's?..Just interested..Dennis

  4. #4
    greenlanterncorp1987 is offline Senior Member
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    I agree I would really like to hear their input on this as well. Personally I think the reason they are doing this is to get people out. With the draw down of forces that is sadly coming they are looking to get rid of people and this will probably knock a few people or in this case women out.

  5. #5
    splitterUSMC is offline Junior Member
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    I'm probably one of the few female Marines on this site...hopefully there are more.

    I think this is probably a long time coming. I think this is partly due to a need for more upper body strength conditioning and the pull-up is a good workout for that, and partly due to that quest for "equality" (not that this will satisfy those people as only 8 pull-ups gets max points rather than the 20 men are required). That quest for equality is part of what's driving the combat MOS thing - I think there is some validity to females being trained in those areas as we are serving with grunt units and other front-line units (although not officially attached) with the Female Engagement Teams since men simply can't engage with half of the population in the areas we are currently fighting. I doubt that females will be made 0311s (maybe some other 03XX for full time FET members who are trained as and with the infantry) but the combat exclusion will go away eventually regardless.

    Promotions WILL be affected by this - I can max a hang easily for 100 points, but 3 pull-ups (minimum) is only 40 points. That's a huge difference. The good thing is we do the CFT (Combat Fitness Test) in the 2nd half of the year and that now weighs in equally with the PFT on that portion of promotion consideration.

    Some of the main concerns I have are that upper body strength has been measured by the flexed arm hang with a minimum passing score of something like 15-18 seconds. Now the minimum is 3 pull-ups which is a significant increase in required effort AND a completely different set of muscles and mindset. I think the mindset will be the biggest difficulty to overcome because many of my peers who are no longer 18 and have never managed to DO a pull-up either don't think they can do it or feel like that new 3 pull-up minimum is almost unachievable even though there is a year-long delay before it goes in to effect (and technically you could have almost a year and 7 months since the PFT for the first half of the year doesn't need to be completed until June 2014!)

    I couldn't do any pullups before I started working out in preparation for boot camp at age 25, but maxed the flexed arm hang the first time I attempted it (it's really quite a bit of breath control and I'm a trumpet player). I used the assisted machine as well as a door bar in my apartment and got myself up to 3 or 4 before I shipped. I lost weight at boot camp and got up to 7 pull-ups before losing so much weight that I lost all my muscle (I have a significantly higher metabolism than most females and never made it above my minimum weight for my height until after graduating boot camp - in fact I graduated 9 lbs below minimum) By the time I got to my MOS school I had managed to gain 15 lbs and was heavier than I'd been in my life up to that point (and what I've maintained since). I did not continue working on pull-ups progressively unfortunately. Tried doing weight-lifting workouts at my first duty station (to the detriment of my back which put a stop to that).

    Now that I've recovered from that craziness, I've been working out of the Convict Conditioning book off and on for the last 2 years (mostly on for the last year). Been on step 2 of pull-ups for a year as of last week (3 sets of 21) and made huge gains of strength! I randomly did a dead-hang overhand pull-up (a first) a month ago when I was out at PT with my Marines. I tried last night and got 2 dead-hang underhand pull-ups which I think wasn't too bad considering I'm 15 lbs heavier than I was when I really last trained these 6 years ago.

    Right now I'm torn as to whether I should just continue to do CC Step 2 and follow-on steps and hope I get to Step 5 by PFT time or if I should supplement with additional dead-hang pull-up work. I will probably end up doing the supplementary work (a pull-up or 2 every time I pass my door bar) as well as working with my junior female Marines, all but one of whom can't do any pull-ups. I think they will figure it out, but right now most of them seem just a bit overwhelmed! I think one of the biggest problems I'll have to overcome with them is simply getting them to approach PT as an incremental plan. Most of them go to the gym when we have individual PT due to rain and just sort of aimlessly do weights.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts on...
    Sgt Splitter

  6. #6
    greenlanterncorp1987 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by splitterUSMC View Post
    I'm probably one of the few female Marines on this site...hopefully there are more.

    I think this is probably a long time coming. I think this is partly due to a need for more upper body strength conditioning and the pull-up is a good workout for that, and partly due to that quest for "equality" (not that this will satisfy those people as only 8 pull-ups gets max points rather than the 20 men are required). That quest for equality is part of what's driving the combat MOS thing - I think there is some validity to females being trained in those areas as we are serving with grunt units and other front-line units (although not officially attached) with the Female Engagement Teams since men simply can't engage with half of the population in the areas we are currently fighting. I doubt that females will be made 0311s (maybe some other 03XX for full time FET members who are trained as and with the infantry) but the combat exclusion will go away eventually regardless.

    Promotions WILL be affected by this - I can max a hang easily for 100 points, but 3 pull-ups (minimum) is only 40 points. That's a huge difference. The good thing is we do the CFT (Combat Fitness Test) in the 2nd half of the year and that now weighs in equally with the PFT on that portion of promotion consideration.

    Some of the main concerns I have are that upper body strength has been measured by the flexed arm hang with a minimum passing score of something like 15-18 seconds. Now the minimum is 3 pull-ups which is a significant increase in required effort AND a completely different set of muscles and mindset. I think the mindset will be the biggest difficulty to overcome because many of my peers who are no longer 18 and have never managed to DO a pull-up either don't think they can do it or feel like that new 3 pull-up minimum is almost unachievable even though there is a year-long delay before it goes in to effect (and technically you could have almost a year and 7 months since the PFT for the first half of the year doesn't need to be completed until June 2014!)

    I couldn't do any pullups before I started working out in preparation for boot camp at age 25, but maxed the flexed arm hang the first time I attempted it (it's really quite a bit of breath control and I'm a trumpet player). I used the assisted machine as well as a door bar in my apartment and got myself up to 3 or 4 before I shipped. I lost weight at boot camp and got up to 7 pull-ups before losing so much weight that I lost all my muscle (I have a significantly higher metabolism than most females and never made it above my minimum weight for my height until after graduating boot camp - in fact I graduated 9 lbs below minimum) By the time I got to my MOS school I had managed to gain 15 lbs and was heavier than I'd been in my life up to that point (and what I've maintained since). I did not continue working on pull-ups progressively unfortunately. Tried doing weight-lifting workouts at my first duty station (to the detriment of my back which put a stop to that).

    Now that I've recovered from that craziness, I've been working out of the Convict Conditioning book off and on for the last 2 years (mostly on for the last year). Been on step 2 of pull-ups for a year as of last week (3 sets of 21) and made huge gains of strength! I randomly did a dead-hang overhand pull-up (a first) a month ago when I was out at PT with my Marines. I tried last night and got 2 dead-hang underhand pull-ups which I think wasn't too bad considering I'm 15 lbs heavier than I was when I really last trained these 6 years ago.

    Right now I'm torn as to whether I should just continue to do CC Step 2 and follow-on steps and hope I get to Step 5 by PFT time or if I should supplement with additional dead-hang pull-up work. I will probably end up doing the supplementary work (a pull-up or 2 every time I pass my door bar) as well as working with my junior female Marines, all but one of whom can't do any pull-ups. I think they will figure it out, but right now most of them seem just a bit overwhelmed! I think one of the biggest problems I'll have to overcome with them is simply getting them to approach PT as an incremental plan. Most of them go to the gym when we have individual PT due to rain and just sort of aimlessly do weights.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts on...
    Sgt Splitter
    But let me ask you this, do you think this is at least in part that the service is downsizing and this will knock out a few people?

  7. #7
    ad5ly is offline Senior Member
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    Thank you Sgt Splitter for your insightful post and of course your Marine Corps service. I did my 4 years in the USMC in the early-mid 70's but never served with women Marines. Of course when I next joined the Navy I did serve with women there. In my view I think the fair thing to do (but fairness will not trump the needs of the Corps) is to grandfather this change in so that those future women who enlist will know fully what is ahead. A woman with say - 16 years in - who did the FAH all that time now has a real problem on her hands if she has it in her head that pullups are not possible. She faces dissmissal from service without a deserved retirement. This makes me angry as so many women served faithfully and in dangerous times doing all that they can do only to be dissmissed as unfit so as to save the government money - money in which they will waste anyway on politicians pet projects. They are screwing with our military and it is disgraceful..Dennis

  8. #8
    DLS
    DLS is offline Senior Member
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    One of the immediate issues I see here is the disparity in range and value. The scoring for a male Marine spans 0-20 while a female Marine's scoring span is 0-8. Each pull-up for a male is worth 5 points all across the scale. For a female it's 10-15 except for the last increment. This predisposes the females to a lower score simply because missing "just one more" will cost a female more than a male.

    There was a reason the FAH was initiated, to take into account the different physical structures between the genders and to purposely make two different standards. Having both genders measured by the same standard will always benefit one and detriment another.

    Not a great way to treat a super bunch of patriots that we call Women Marines!

    Semper Fi
    Be well ... Lee.

  9. #9
    ad5ly is offline Senior Member
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    DLS,

    Great point. The pencil neck bureucratic bean counters in govment are allways looking for ways to squeeze more money out of hard working people. Make it "fair" - have the male Marines do a minimum of 5 one arm pullups to pass the PFT. That way they can discard more military people as UNFIT for service and use the money to fund some bone headed enviro study about global warming ..Dennis

  10. #10
    splitterUSMC is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenlanterncorp1987 View Post
    But let me ask you this, do you think this is at least in part that the service is downsizing and this will knock out a few people?
    No I don't think so. The Commandant has been very adamant about not breaking faith with our Marines. There are several downsizing measures in place (early out, voluntary separation pay, early retirement, etc) that are reducing our numbers as needed. I'm in a targeted MOS for these (promotions to SSgt went from approx 35 allocations 3 years ago to 5-6 each of last year and this year) and its very easy to see the Sgts and SSgts getting out due to reduced promotions and the incentives now in place. I don't doubt some people will get out because of this, either due to failure or just deciding its not worth trying but the Marine Corps will move on as it always has. Also, the Commandant put a lot of the responsibility on the commanders to build this into PT training.

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