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Thread: Bonking on WD

  1. #11
    mc
    mc is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFreides View Post
    Comrade mc: there are some carbs in nuts, varies by the variety - just took a quick look at three varieties I have open on my kitchen shelf, and each is roughly 1/2 fat, 1/4 protein, and 1/4 carbs according to the package label. My favorite daytime food lately is homemade nut butter, which I make from almonds, peanuts, and cashews - yum!

    Here's a label I found online:

    Nutritional Breakdown: Almonds

    [Edit] - that's percentages by grams, not by calories. Ah, math ...
    -S-
    KBNJ.COM - Steve Freides, RKC II

    er, it's 72% fat. That's 3/4 fat in the above label. only 7% carb, and 20% protein. Of that 7% of fiber/sugar that counts as carbs, only a small small fraction is actual usable sugars. (4g of 20g in a serving) That's 16 calories of carbohydrate.

    Not a lot to replenish a bonk.

    The work required to release those sugars from that almond is a lot. better to have a piece of fruit or something with rapidly available starchy carb or sugar that can be available quickly. Or ya, have almonds and continue to feel like poo, end the workout etc.

    So again, kinda my point: a bonk means a sudden drop in glycogen - sometimes that's your brain crying for assistance as well as your muscles. And it wants something quickly.

    As you note, we all get caught once in awhile in a bonk. Why punish yourself or compromise your workout? have something available for a fast hit. Jelly beans can be a great friend. yes, jelly beans They can be packed easily; they'll keep, and they're pretty fast at making sugar available. the jelly bellies are the best. even REI sells 'em.

    mc
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  2. #12
    Steve Freides is offline Senior Member
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    How does 20 gr protein, 20 gr carb, and 47 grams of fat work out to be 72% fat?

    -S-
    KBNJ.COM - Steve Freides, RKC II

  3. #13
    Chiggers Guest

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    MC

    Maybe i got caught up in 'hype' but from a personal stance i was under the impression that you can get the body to a position where it chooses to burn fat for energy if there is limited glycogen available. As such if you were to be working physically all day and you have 'taught' your body to burn fat, eating eggs and almonds would work well enough. (Isn't this the position Ellis (who i haven't read), Ori, and many paleo / primal peeps?)

    I may add to my former position and say throw in some raisins etc just to go with MC but it i was in this chaps example the approach i mentioned works for me along with loads of water. I would suggest trying it and reporting back. If the chap has an energy crash - my bad - sorry mate.

    Chiggers

  4. #14
    mc
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFreides View Post
    How does 20 gr protein, 20 gr carb, and 47 grams of fat work out to be 72% fat?

    -S-
    KBNJ.COM - Steve Freides, RKC II
    Steve, i'm wrong. I was low

    Calorically, that's 423 of 546 calories from fat. So that's 77% fat. closer to 78.

    As stated, there are only 3.7g of sugar. the rest of that carb amount is fiber (soluble or not, dunno) and dunno what else, so not sure what the nutrient profile is. That's let's call it 16g of fast carbs. That's about 2.9% usable fast sugar.

    mc
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  5. #15
    mc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiggers View Post
    MC

    Maybe i got caught up in 'hype' but from a personal stance i was under the impression that you can get the body to a position where it chooses to burn fat for energy if there is limited glycogen available. As such if you were to be working physically all day and you have 'taught' your body to burn fat, eating eggs and almonds would work well enough. (Isn't this the position Ellis (who i haven't read), Ori, and many paleo / primal peeps?)
    If you're totally off starchy carbs, and have gone more or less ketogenic, yes your body is privileging fat. BUT the metabolic process to convert fat for energy is still not as fast as converting sugar to energy.

    To my knowledge even the WD does not suggest working out without a starchy carb source.

    Likewise you'll note in the paleo diet that again, to my knowledge, unlike eat stop eat for instance, there's not alot about athletes in there or attention to effort.

    Note, i'm not talking about general systems here, where you've fed yourself sufficiently fueled up in advance. I'm talking about those situations in which you've overtaxed yourself, you're bonking, and you still have stuff to do. Hence the need for fast sugar.

    Again, i'd encourage anyone into how/why ketogenic diets work, and how various "protein sparing" diets work to check out Lyle McDonald's excellent "ketogenic diet" and very good "ultimate diet 2"

    In KD, mcdonald makes the point (similar to WD) about why having fast carbs around workouts is a Good Idea for optimal performance.



    I may add to my former position and say throw in some raisins etc just to go with MC but it i was in this chaps example the approach i mentioned works for me along with loads of water. I would suggest trying it and reporting back. If the chap has an energy crash - my bad - sorry mate.

    Chiggers
    If you're not bonking, then you have enough fuel available and that's super. I care about the bonk

    mc
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  6. #16
    Steve Freides is offline Senior Member
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    > If you're not bonking, then you have enough fuel available and that's super. I care about the bonk

    There's a piece in today's NY Times about how much the mind is important in the "bonk" - I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but they found that people who just swished a bit of carb drink around in their mouths, meaning they didn't actually ingest any of it and therefore didn't get any carbs from it, could exercise significantly longer than those who didn't.

    Go figure ...

    -S-
    KBNJ.COM - Steve Freides, RKC II

  7. #17
    Ed Pushman is offline Junior Member
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    Default errrr...

    Hi guys,

    Weird thing... doesn't "bonking" = "shagging"?

    E

  8. #18
    Dak Ink is offline Senior Member
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    If you know you are going to be active all day you have to stay hydrated and you have to eat something. The WD is about under eating live foods during the day, but if you are exercising have some carbs before, I think digging for several hours qualifies for this. Just make sure its not all crap and you should be just fine. I like fruit and veggie juices from my juicer during the day. or an apple on the go works just fine as well.

    And he means bonking= hitting the wall/running out of steam, not shagging. However I did think the same thing as well.

  9. #19
    Steve Freides is offline Senior Member
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    Link to NY Times article I mentioned earlier in this thread:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/ma...fatigue&st=cse

    -S-
    KBNJ.COM - Steve Freides, RKC II

  10. #20
    mc
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveFreides View Post
    > If you're not bonking, then you have enough fuel available and that's super. I care about the bonk

    There's a piece in today's NY Times about how much the mind is important in the "bonk" - I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but they found that people who just swished a bit of carb drink around in their mouths, meaning they didn't actually ingest any of it and therefore didn't get any carbs from it, could exercise significantly longer than those who didn't.

    Go figure ...

    -S-
    KBNJ.COM - Steve Freides, RKC II


    Just to be clear, the athletes were faster; not longer; not harder. The longitudinal effect wasn't studied, nor was the effort, and that's actually pretty critical. It's not clear the effect was significant. i haven't seen the numbers.

    Yup the mind plays a role in how physiological signals are processed. very true.

    This doesn't mean just suck it up, keep going, the reserves you need are there.

    It means in this case, the brain got tricked into thinking there was fuel coming to it - and that fuel didn't actually get to it - and so for a short period (at least in this study) the brain let more of a limited remaining resource get spent rather than fatiguing out.

    Is that a good idea? dunno. Guess it depends on how *much* longer one has to go before actually really being tapping out. And then what's the cost to the system run closer into the ground?

    Carbohydrate sensing in the human mouth: effects on exercise performance and brain activity


    1. E. S. Chambers1,
    2. M. W. Bridge1 and
    3. D. A. Jones1,2

    +Author Affiliations

    1. 1School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B15 2TT, UK2Institute for Biomedical Research into Human Movement and Health, Manchester Metropolitan University, Manchester M1 5GD, UK


    1. Corresponding author E. S. Chambers: School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B15 2TT, UK.  Email: e.s.chambers@bham.ac.uk


    Abstract

    Exercise studies have suggested that the presence of carbohydrate in the human mouth activates regions of the brain that can enhance exercise performance but direct evidence of such a mechanism is limited. The first aim of the present study was to observe how rinsing the mouth with solutions containing glucose and maltodextrin, disguised with artificial sweetener, would affect exercise performance. The second aim was to use functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to identify the brain regions activated by these substances. In Study 1A, eight endurance-trained cyclists ( 60.8 ± 4.1 ml kg−1 min−1) completed a cycle time trial (total work = 914 ± 29 kJ) significantly faster when rinsing their mouths with a 6.4% glucose solution compared with a placebo containing saccharin (60.4 ± 3.7 and 61.6 ± 3.8 min, respectively, P = 0.007). The corresponding fMRI study (Study 1B) revealed that oral exposure to glucose activated reward-related brain regions, including the anterior cingulate cortex and striatum, which were unresponsive to saccharin. In Study 2A, eight endurance-trained cyclists ( 57.8 ± 3.2 ml kg−1 min−1) tested the effect of rinsing with a 6.4% maltodextrin solution on exercise performance, showing it to significantly reduce the time to complete the cycle time trial (total work = 837 ± 68 kJ) compared to an artificially sweetened placebo (62.6 ± 4.7 and 64.6 ± 4.9 min, respectively, P = 0.012). The second neuroimaging study (Study 2B) compared the cortical response to oral maltodextrin and glucose, revealing a similar pattern of brain activation in response to the two carbohydrate solutions, including areas of the insula/frontal operculum, orbitofrontal cortex and striatum. The results suggest that the improvement in exercise performance that is observed when carbohydrate is present in the mouth may be due to the activation of brain regions believed to be involved in reward and motor control. The findings also suggest that there may be a class of so far unidentified oral receptors that respond to carbohydrate independently of those for sweetness.

    Footnotes


    • (Resubmitted 2 October 2008; accepted after revision 17 February 2009; first published online 23 February 2009)


    the point highlighted at the end seems most open and intriguing.

    mc
    Last edited by mc; 07-21-2009 at 04:13 AM.
    mc, phd, cscs,
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