The world’s premier network for those seeking to share and discuss high-impact,high results, super practical information for the developmentof superiorphysical performance.
Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    GeoffreyLevens is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    548

    Default Taking BCAA's with food?

    Any documented reason to take BCCA's by themselves? Why not with immediate post-workout meal?

  2. #2
    ComradeCat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    289

    Default

    The quick and simple answer is that we don't know because there is insufficient research into BCAAs as a category, so it'll be harder to answer an in-depth question.

    Here is examine.com's summary literature on it: https://examine.com/supplements/bran...n-amino-acids/

    Here are some common sources of BCAAs: Ask The Macro Manager: What Are The Best BCAA Food Sources?

    From the generally accepted idea of BCAA's is that if you eat meat, you're probably getting sufficient BCAA from your food sources.

    I have heard of BCAA's being suggested on calorie deficit diets, or during fasts. I presume it provides the body with essential amino acids during a period where it's not getting enough of them.

  3. #3
    GeoffreyLevens is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    548

    Default

    Thanks CC, great info! Particularly

    The quick and simple answer is that we don't know because there is insufficient research into BCAAs as a category, so it'll be harder to answer an in-depth question.
    I very rarely eat anything from any phyla other than plants though lately have started taking gelatin (100% grass fed/finished organic cattle sourced) to try to extend the life of my decrepit knees. Too soon to tell if it is helping but no reason not to. Not the greatest protein source for building strength or size, I guess whey generally considered to be that, but I have other concerns like the methionine, IGF-1, TOR enzyme etc cancer risk. Have friend on therapeutic keto diet for brain cancer (3 1/2 years post surgery for baseball sized highly aggressive, metastatic tumor--so far just insanely healthy with no other treatment really) and one of the many variables she monitors is IGF-1, keeping it low but not too low. It seems most all of these things, there is a Goldilocks sweet spot of just right.

    Thanks again

  4. #4
    ComradeCat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    289

    Default

    Ok, this is in the realm of medical science, and something I would be woefully inept in any proficiency.

    That said... knees & nutrition... have you read Weston A Price's Nutrition & Physical Degeneration? I hear good things about how his watershed text is good for adjusting your nutrition and diet.

    IMHO, supplements are the tail-end of nutrition. I've seen greater improvement in my strength and physique by just changing my whole-foods diet instead of trying fancy new supplements. Now i'm not able to provide any advice when it comes to a vegetarian or vegan diet, but unless you need BCAAs, I'd say shelve them. My views towards a plant diet aside, it seems that many vegetarians survive on a plant diet, and there are the outliers which seem to thrive on it. So; are BCAAs needed, looks like no for the general public.

  5. #5
    GeoffreyLevens is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    548

    Default

    ComradeCat, I have been eating whole foods only for many years, mostly vegan, very occasional small servings of 100% grass fed/finished elk or buffalo from local ranch. I have read Price's book and think his work has been badly distorted by the foundation that is now using his name. All the groups of indigenous people he visited (except Inuit and Masai) were in fact eating mostly plants and relatively small amounts of wild game meat, not the very high fat diet promoted by the foundation. I decided to nix the BCCA's due to their tendency to bump up IGF-1 which though it does promote muscle growth, also can just as easily promote cancer growth. Too little IGF-1 and you run into problems but up to that fairly low level, the less the better for living long and healthy. I gladly trade that for bulking up

  6. #6
    ComradeCat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffreyLevens View Post
    ComradeCat, I have been eating whole foods only for many years, mostly vegan, very occasional small servings of 100% grass fed/finished elk or buffalo from local ranch. I have read Price's book and think his work has been badly distorted by the foundation that is now using his name. All the groups of indigenous people he visited (except Inuit and Masai) were in fact eating mostly plants and relatively small amounts of wild game meat, not the very high fat diet promoted by the foundation. I decided to nix the BCCA's due to their tendency to bump up IGF-1 which though it does promote muscle growth, also can just as easily promote cancer growth. Too little IGF-1 and you run into problems but up to that fairly low level, the less the better for living long and healthy. I gladly trade that for bulking up
    Well; looks like you pretty much have your answer. My personal experience is what works for you, works for you, regardless of what a white paper might say.

    Scientific evidence is useful in providing a clear direction if you have none, but if you have settled into something which works well for you and has no negative medical consequences, I don't see why you shouldn't carry on.

  7. #7
    GeoffreyLevens is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    548

    Default

    White papers are lacking if fiber! Go with the brown paper...

  8. #8
    DennisRight is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    19

    Default

    great links .. interesting..
    DennisRight - Right Now www.rightnowcleaning.com

  9. #9
    MostlyFull is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Mr.Levens,

    From what I have read, 6 grams of the BCAA Leucine is enough to begin protein synthesis. The question of the Mtor pathway being opened is a concern, however you need both leucine and carbohydrates to provide the insulin spike to open Mtor.

    Leucine alone does not open Mtor. Other Amino Acids and Carbohydrates do not open Mtor.

    Apparently, some studies, probably with rats, have shown that using Leucine without Carbohydrates can begin protein synthesis, although not as strongly as with MTor.

    iIf you want to try it, you might ingest 6 or more grams of Leucine during or near the end of your workout, and hold off on Carbs for an hour or two. As long as you don't mix meat and Starchy carbs, you should keep Mtor shut down and still get the protein synthesis you may want to get.

    At least that is some of the stuff I read.
    Last edited by MostlyFull; 11-26-2017 at 12:34 PM.

  10. #10
    GeoffreyLevens is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    548

    Default

    Dennis and Mostly, thanks for bumping this up. What I found was that I did feel a bet better overall, not so much my knees, taking the gelatin/collagen. More energy, better recovery from workouts. As an experiment I stopped that and started taking about same amount of protein daily in form of either sardines or grass fed elk/buffalo. Got the same benefit but more! I think all the internet buzz about gelatin/collagen is likely mostly placebo. Yes, it contains the balance of amino acids in larger molecular form that is in your own collagen, but that is broken down into its constituent aminos in your gut. From there it is absorbed and joins the existing pool of free aminos in your blood stream. So where's the magic? If you are getting enough protein there should be plenty of what you need to rebuild.

    I do think there is a clear difference in effect between plant and animal protein. After several months of about 2 oz daily sardines or elk, I tested my IGF-1 level and it was 123 ug/L which is right in the middle of what seems to be the "sweet spot", between about 80 and 140. Below 80, you run into increased risk of bone loss, arthritis, muscle wasting, chronic fatigue, all sorts of degeneration. Above 140 or 150 you bump up risk of many cancers. I suspect I just needed more animal sourced protein than what I was getting from my near vegan diet.

    Side bar: my knees are crap. Going next week to see if I can get Medicare to pay for Synvisc injections. Also going to do some Egoscue training which I know has helped many with all sorts of pain and structural dysfunctions. Onward into geezerhood!

    Here's links to a couple of interesting articles I stumbled on just a few days ago:

    Knee Pain - Cartilage Grows Back

    Does Cartilage Loss Cause Knee Pain?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Free Course
Close