Prison Push-up Misconception

[Easey Jack]

Oops. Derailed it.

[KallosThenos]

Easey Jack I agree with everything you say, the CC steps are great, I have no problems with the Bridging, Leg Raise, Pullup and Squat series. The only problems I have are the ambiguity of the Push-up and Handstand Push-up series. The Push-up and Handstand Push-up series are great until you get to the "Half Steps" and the "Master Steps". When I spend my time on a system I want to be able to trust it entirely along with the author (the author is extremely important, contrary to what most people believe), I want to know everything the author did and said was the truth. I hate being deceived or lied to, I got really pissed off when I found out the model in CC couldn't do the Prison OAP and OAHSPU. It's like finding a model for a swimming ad that can't even swim.

I agree about the point you made in The Naked Warrior. I own the book and I find it to be pretty lackluster (no offense to Pavel). It's just some tips and tricks to improve strength and two bodyweight moves to try it on. Kind of like a mini-strength experiment you do on your spare time, not really a "system" to take you from beginner to advanced levels of strength.

I want everyone to know I don't "hate" CC or anything, in fact it's the exact opposite. I love CC and I personally use it exclusively. I simply want to point out the kinks and ambiguity so that it can be explained by the publishers/author or to let other people be aware. I'm not a big fan of conforming like a sheep and never asking any questions or challenging the system.

Also to Chiggers, I apologize if my condescending comment offended you in some personal way (relative who's in active duty I'm guessing?). I'm only playing with Fatman's cliche comment on "Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's impossible". Theoretically "Nothing is impossible", just unlikely. In this case someone performing a OAHSPU is VERY UNLIKELY.

I'm not saying the prison style OAP or the OAHSPU is "ZOMG IMPOSSIBRU!!!11", I just want some damn proof that I'm working towards something that is achievable by a competent athlete with hard work. I KNOW I can eventually achieve the Iron Cross, Planche, Front Lever and other awesome feats of strength because I've seen people do it through hard work and dedication and I know I can too. I just want some proof of it being done damnit, so my mind can be put to rest and I can pump those push-ups and handstand push-ups hard knowing I'll get there someday.

I don't want no one to tell me to shut up and do my push-ups. Believe me I do my damn pushups and I train hard as hell every workout. I don't get lazy and shit, I still workout even when I'm sick and tired and several times I got near the point of puking on the spot. Yes I know that's probably pushing it too much and even unnecessary but I want you gentlemen to know I'm no internet warrior just yapping around for fun and never actually do any exercise. I put the work in and I want misunderstandings to be clarified.

Paul Wade I sent you a damn email already (Yes I bought the CC Push-up DVD's just to be able to email him). So hurry up already so I can tell these people what the heck is going on.

[JasonL.Ac.]

Jason, I always enjoy your posts, but I have to say--respectfully and not in a trolling way--that I disagree with all your points in this one!

In particular, the idea that Paul Wade's work is "dogmatic" and that "it can't be questioned" is very unfair. Paul talks about flexibility, variety, freedom and individual "body wisdom" in everything he writes! On the other hand, Pavel's motto is "the party is always right". I've found that many CCers are using hybrid routines, while a lot of Hardstyle proponents are practically Nazis about everything from pressing form to rep ranges to the footwear (or lack of) you "must" wear!]

Paul Wade, from his book, doesn't seem to be so dogmatic (except when talking about weights); his followers on here, not so much. You yourself are an exception to this; your writing is always calm, level-headed, and sensible, even if I sometimes disagree. I wrote a week or so ago on why I feel this is much less true for the ETK crowd, and gave several specific examples. Ultimately, it's in the eye of the beholder, and we'll have to agree to disagree.


[In fairness, the CC Master Step for legs is the pistol. If you brought the book already able to do the pistol, you really shouldn't be that surprised that you didn't learn much! (I did learn the one-leg squat the CC way, and loved it! I also know other beginners who have gained a lot from the other 9 steps.) ;-)]

Again, I was hoping for more and better tools for teaching it.



[Again, disagree. In fact, TOTALLY disagree! Pavel in his HLR course doesn't give ANY progressive steps. He just tells you do do hanging knee raises and straighten your legs out!! Apart from that, the book contains nothing but HLR variants, which are only of any use if you can already do hanging leg raises.]

C'mon Jack, you're better than that. Pavel gives about 3-5 progressive steps (depending on how you count) in that article. I went from 0 to 5 x 5 using that article, and have taught others who started out unable to do a pullup to do the same. FYI, we went into more detail about it at RKC2; hopefully when Pavel's new book comes out, some of that material will be included in there.



[This is a personal preference. That's fair enough, I guess. I prefer the non-gymnastic kind of hspu: I can build muscle and strength without having to worry about balance. So I love what CC had to teach me. Glad you got a lot out of hspus, though. ;-)]

Fair enough, horses for courses. I did get a lot out of them, especially before I took up weights, and I progressed fairly rapidly on presses in the beginning of ETK, which I attribute to my experience with hspu.



[See this is the trouble I have with Naked Warrior. It's just not progressive. It gives tips and tricks to help you perform an exercise--almost like it's a stunt rather than a training technique--then leaves you hanging. You learn to do the (fairly easy--let's be honest) version of Pavel's one-arm one-leg push-ups...then what? Then what next week, next month? The same? Add reps? Y-A-W-N! :-)]

I don't find Pavel's version that easy, and based on youtube and my experience with others, a lot of other people don't either. Your experience is different from mine in that respect; you may have some insight into the move that i'm missing. I would agree that NW as such doesn't provide the same template for routines that CC does; that's a little bit of a weakness, and I've written bodyweight routines for others based on what I've learned from Pavel, Al Kavadlo, Chirstopher Sommer (and some of my martial arts background) that attempts to address that. The fighter pullup program is a wonderful routine and a good starting point for that process.

[Don't take this wrong Jason. I just disagree--no disrespect. I'd better stop now, as this may derail the thread....

Some of my comments are in the text above; for some reason I can't get the quote block to work quite as I'd like.

No offense taken, I have a lot of respect for you, and appreciate that we can have an intelligent discussion without name-calling, etc. I learn a lot from it, even if I don't give up my routine and switch to CC.

I will say though, that although I don't think you meant it directed towards me personally, your use of the term "nazi" to characterize those you disagree with, even though you qualify it with "practically", is hurtful to me. 75% of my family was killed in the concentration camps during the holocaust, and I grew up with relatives that had numbers tattooed on their arms. My grandmother, who helped raise me and who I was incredibly close to, was a woman of incredibly strong character and personality. The only time I ever saw her look defeated or downcast was at yad vashem, when she after decades of trying to find out what had happened to the cousins she used to play with every summer as a little girl, she had to finally accept that she would never know their fate; they were most likely dead, but she would never have the closure of knowing for certain one way or the other. She had to let go of a 50 year old hope and dream that she would finally find out the truth, maybe even by some chance be reunited with them. The phrase "heart-broken" is tossed around a lot, but that day I saw what it really meant. You of course have the right to type whatever word you want on an internet discussion forum, or anywhere else, but I wish you would choose something else.

best,
Jason

[JasonL.Ac.]

finally someone tells it how it is.

i agree with this. cc for me is about muscle rather than just being able to do a type of technique.my cc workouts are BRUTAL, and have added 3 inches solid onto my arms, going from 12 and a half to near 16. my students have also built themselves up nicely with the methods the coach wade lays out

pavels stuff seems to be more about learning techniques than muscle gain.most of the guys who post on here saying how paul wade is wrong have less muscle on them than pencils, and often not much power either.

i havent met with JasonALC but i bet you dollars to donuts the guy doesnt weight a buck fifty!!

only kidding guys. maybe.

*face palm*

You would be wrong about that, and if you care to put your money where your mouth is, we can try to make that bet happen. I think its pretty ridiculous though, to try to claim increased body weight as some kind of criterior for authority on the subject of bodyweight exercise in particular; Al Kavadlo weighs about 150, Jim Bathurst, last I talked to him, was somewhere in the 150's, the hand balancer I posted about (closest yet to a one arm handstand pushup) doesn't look like he weighs more than that, Christopher Sommer, who's stronger than most of us put together, weighs quite a bit less, 305pelusa, who has done great things with bodyweight, weighs less, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam. I could care less about the size of my biceps, having a 'six pack', or any of that nonsense; as someone who competes in sports with weight classes, I'm not really looking to put on weight either. I simply train for the joy of it, to get stronger, more flexible, and be healthy.

You've mentioned your students and teaching many times; what's the website for your school?

[Karate Pipes]

*face palm*

You would be wrong about that, and if you care to put your money where your mouth is, we can try to make that bet happen.

I could care less about the size of my biceps, having a 'six pack', or any of that nonsense; as someone who competes in sports with weight classes, I'm not really looking to put on weight either.

Jason no offense but you just dont get it. you never have. cc is not gymnastics and never was. cc is not about rushing to get to perform certain techniques really fast, its about using bw techniques to build muscle and strenght over time. you use these tehcniques as TOOLS, they are not the end. thats why so many people on your wavelength criticise the book.

if you wind up skinny and with no muscle, you have FAILED at cc no matter what step you get up to!! dont you get this? its basically prison bodybuiding dude.

for what tis worth, i found you on youtube. I apologize sincerely, it says you aren;t 150 pounds, but all the way up to 162. so i was clearly well off.

*facepalm*

this is why hearing you diss cc as inferior is funny. Like someone who curls 200 pounds in the rack and has 12 inch arms criticizing arnold's encyclopedia.

also interested to hear someone answer a technical training post with a holocaust complaint, as well, thats a first for me. I have always found it remarkable that there are so many people in the us who had most of their family die in the holocaust. The industry seems to be thriving quite well, in fact

Not all of us are liars, Jason.

[Easey Jack]

I will say though, that although I don't think you meant it directed towards me personally, your use of the term "nazi" to characterize those you disagree with, even though you qualify it with "practically", is hurtful to me. 75% of my family was killed in the concentration camps during the holocaust, and I grew up with relatives that had numbers tattooed on their arms. My grandmother, who helped raise me and who I was incredibly close to, was a woman of incredibly strong character and personality. The only time I ever saw her look defeated or downcast was at yad vashem, when she after decades of trying to find out what had happened to the cousins she used to play with every summer as a little girl, she had to finally accept that she would never know their fate; they were most likely dead, but she would never have the closure of knowing for certain one way or the other. She had to let go of a 50 year old hope and dream that she would finally find out the truth, maybe even by some chance be reunited with them. The phrase "heart-broken" is tossed around a lot, but that day I saw what it really meant. You of course have the right to type whatever word you want on an internet discussion forum, or anywhere else, but I wish you would choose something else.

best,
Jason

Jason, please accept my apologies for this. Obviously it was not meant personally, but I see now that I used this term impulsively and inappropriately.

I have deleted the offending term and hope you accept my apologies.

Jack

[KallosThenos]

finally someone tells it how it is.

i agree with this. cc for me is about muscle rather than just being able to do a type of technique.my cc workouts are BRUTAL, and have added 3 inches solid onto my arms, going from 12 and a half to near 16. my students have also built themselves up nicely with the methods the coach wade lays out

pavels stuff seems to be more about learning techniques than muscle gain.most of the guys who post on here saying how paul wade is wrong have less muscle on them than pencils, and often not much power either.

i havent met with JasonALC but i bet you dollars to donuts the guy doesnt weight a buck fifty!!

only kidding guys. maybe.

Interesting to note you gained 3 inches of muscle on your arms from CC. I personally have gained more overall definition from CC, I'm weighing in about 180 lbs at 6'1, which isn't very heavy for someone my height. I'm definitely aiming for the 190-200 lbs range, preferably 200lbs with 10% bodyfat. I'm hoping CC can take me there.

You are definitely correct to say CC is more about building muscle rather than doing a type of move. The higher level stuff (Prison Pushup, OAHSPU) are important to discuss too because with diligent work one will eventually approach them and further increases in muscularity and strength depend on the availability and the practicality of these higher level moves.

I am interested to hear what other results you and your students have achieved from CC.

[senorchupacabra]

*face palm*

You would be wrong about that, and if you care to put your money where your mouth is, we can try to make that bet happen. I think its pretty ridiculous though, to try to claim increased body weight as some kind of criterior for authority on the subject of bodyweight exercise in particular; Al Kavadlo weighs about 150, Jim Bathurst, last I talked to him, was somewhere in the 150's, the hand balancer I posted about (closest yet to a one arm handstand pushup) doesn't look like he weighs more than that, Christopher Sommer, who's stronger than most of us put together, weighs quite a bit less, 305pelusa, who has done great things with bodyweight, weighs less, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam. I could care less about the size of my biceps, having a 'six pack', or any of that nonsense; as someone who competes in sports with weight classes, I'm not really looking to put on weight either. I simply train for the joy of it, to get stronger, more flexible, and be healthy.

You've mentioned your students and teaching many times; what's the website for your school?

On Al's website it says he weighs around 165-170. I think I read somewhere that Jim Bathurst weighs closer to 185 (a long way from the 150 range).

With that said, I think size makes accomplishing certain BW tasks much more difficult. It's pure math--it's going to be easier for a 130-lbs person to get a one-armed pullup than a 200-lbs person. The bigger person has to move more weight, period. 305pelusa is one of the most advanced "layman" I've seen in many exercises and he's pretty slim. Watch the ninja warrior competition and no one has beaten the course who weighs more than a buck-45.

When looked at in those terms, though, a 170-lbs person doing 20 pullups or a one-armed pushup is somewhat more impressive than a 140-lbs person doing the same thing. And, in terms of raw strength (as opposed to pound-for-pound), the bigger guy's gotta be somewhat more impressive... I would think.

[305pelusa]

On Al's website it says he weighs around 165-170. I think I read somewhere that Jim Bathurst weighs closer to 185 (a long way from the 150 range).

With that said, I think size makes accomplishing certain BW tasks much more difficult. It's pure math--it's going to be easier for a 130-lbs person to get a one-armed pullup than a 200-lbs person. The bigger person has to move more weight, period. 305pelusa is one of the most advanced "layman" I've seen in many exercises and he's pretty slim. Watch the ninja warrior competition and no one has beaten the course who weighs more than a buck-45.

When looked at in those terms, though, a 170-lbs person doing 20 pullups or a one-armed pushup is somewhat more impressive than a 140-lbs person doing the same thing. And, in terms of raw strength (as opposed to pound-for-pound), the bigger guy's gotta be somewhat more impressive... I would think.

This is 100% true. The more you weigh, the harder cals will be. This is the opposite to weightlifting, where the lighter you are, the more impressive whatever you do becomes. Of course, this applies to two people with similar bodyfat %s.

Which is a definite advantage I have. It does help. I'm also pretty short, which makes most exercises easier due to leverage. Height is a factor just like weight with calisthenics.