being hurt

[Randy]

an aching shoulder or trick knee or something is one thing...being a cripple is another

using massive doses of steroids for years without a break....just plain ignoring certain basic body motions (raising the hands over the head)...using 100% weights EVERY week.....I mean, why not just shoot yourself and get it over with quicker??

Is Kaz a cripple....yeah he tore a pec....but is he a cripple? Is Jon Cole? Is Reindhout? Mike Macdonald (torn tricep....but does he need help getting off the floor)? Doug Furnas? how did they total what they did, mostly or completely raw..and yet not be a walking cripple?

"Wisdom is proven right by her children"


If one's system produces cripples...then one's system is simply wrong....no matter how many video sales it produces


and now we are telling KIDS to start off with gear and to not OH press and to "not do anything that doesnt relate directly to improving your total"...???

The Russians were smarter than that...for the most part they DISALLOWED young kids from specializing....they made them participate in a VARIETY of sports

I think it is a little funny how fiercely we defend our chosen sport....and we say other sports are wrong....for instance we have said for years that "weightlifting doesnt make one musclebound".....I guess now we can say "but it will make you a cripple"

 

[rifstonian]

I agree

but look at the average life expenctancy of an NFL player, its around 57.lots of the old players are cripples, sacrificing knees, necks and backs for the "glory" of the game. Its not just powerlifting.

Steroids are a very addicting drug, I dont think people understand jsut how much so. and it usually takes time before the real side effects show. sometimes the side effect is just allowing you to use more weight than you really should.

you want to talk cripples just wait til this group of overtrained and over competiting teenagers hit their forties. the increase in ACL and rotator cuff injuries to teenage girls and boys is almost epidemic. talk about specialization!Everyone has to play competitive sports now to get into college and most coaches just plain suck. period.and you better not do too much track or your swim coach wont think you're serious.

and as for the Russian ARE YOU KIDDING? They threw away athletes like they were tissue paper. You better not get hurt or you lost your "job" and your salary. The American Gymnastics coaches( dick mulvihill , whom I worked for, and Bela Karoli) adapted this strategy and started winning. train everyone as hard as possible and see who survives. swimmers are no better and train little girls like maniacs. I have had to clean up their mess more often than I like to recall.

as long as the rewards are as high as they are people will do what it takes to win. thats just life.

rif
http://www. giryastrength.com

 

[Scott Shetler]

Randy..

So WSB is wrong because their system produces cripples, regardless of video sales? Last I heard Tate was back in the gym working on getting strong again now that he improved his mobility and took care of his issues. I would hardly call any of their lifters "cripples". Last I heard they were all posting some damn big numbers and still kicking ass. I know you are gung-ho Sheiko and high volume Russian training, but that is not "the only way", just as Rif pointed out many champions and records were maybe with good ol' Western Periodization. Sure, maybe WSB didn't work for you, but to make a statement that it is wrong because it produces cripples is a bit of a stretch.

Have you ever seen John Coffee hobble around? Should someone run over to his gym and tell the Oly team to stop performing the Oly lifts cause' of the way their coach hobbles around? Hardly. That is a great gym that puts out great lifters.

I don't think any propenent of the WSB style of training recommends young kids start off with gear and no overhead work. In fact in listening to Louie speak numerous times he recommends one build a huge GPP base (as well as being strong without the shirt on among other things), the same way the Russians did with their children as they developed into specialization with their athletics. In fact a lot of the WSB videos show many overhead exercises, DB presses, OH rack lockouts, etc. Wendler, in the EFS Exercise index even talks about how important military presses were in taking his raw 405 bench to a raw 455 in a matter of months, working it for reps and not going 100% every week. In fact, I don't ever recall them recommending going to 100% weekly (but rather what you are capable of on THAT DAY, not always the same numbers), especially now when they are recommending cycling work in the 90% range and incorporating back off weeks. Keep in mind rotating max effort exercises weekly and pushing them hard is NOT the same as going balls to the wall on the SAME lift week after week, that is a recipe for disaster.

I think the negativity toward overhead pressing comes more from the sport coaches that write and post on EFS. Buddy Morris stated he was not a big fan of OH pressing for his athletes, guess what, his athletes were pro football players (not young high school player or even college players with healthy shoulders) whose shoulders were beat to hell already from being around the block a few times. OH pressing just wasn't working for them.

So yeah, I think that if a PL'er is training for something other than his total it is a waste of time. Restoration, GPP, recovery measures, etc. are all implemented for the main goal of helping the total, just like pro ball players train to improve performance. If a PL'er doesn't have the athleticism to go out and play pick up football it's no big deal, unless of course that is part of their goals. Goals are up to the individual and if one chooses to take a path and it leads them to injury in pursuit of their goals, that is their choice and often one that has to be made when pursuing sport at the highest level. Pl'ers don't need to be "athletic", they just need to put up big numbers.

 

[Scott Shetler]

Good point about the Russians Rif...

People talk about the Bulgarian and Russian programs being so successful, but it was just for the small % of athletes that actually "made the team", the cream of the crop.