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happy happy happy with our fat - sort of

mc

New member
as a complement to the recent threads on thinness and exercise, here's something from the other side of the fence.

what if you're happy with your weight? but what if happiness with weight has actually gone up over a pretty good period, along with super sizing (as described in the set point theory kybosh article last week - look at how plate size and serving size has gone up!)

Take that again set point theory!

it seems we're fatter culturally and seemingly getting more ok with that (while concurrently being more distressed, depressed and lethargic).

Fun Reading! Hope you'll check it out at b2d

the point here: while all last week we argued about the primacy of diet and the secondariness of exercise, there's one more variable to take into account habit - or mort particularly habituated responses to homeostatic signals of stress and satiety.

This piece is a warm up :)

best

mc
 

mc

New member
not single factor

ok
and in a rather take that to gary taubes exercise makes you hungrier
yes and no:

Proc Nutr Soc. 2008 Feb;67(1):28-41.
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Effects of exercise and restrained eating behaviour on appetite control.

Martins C, Robertson MD, Morgan LM.

Division of Nutrition, Dietetics and Food Sciences, Faculty of Biomedical and Molecular Sciences, University of Surrey, Guildford GU2 7XH, UK. C.Martins@surrey.ac.uk

Obesity is a global epidemic; increased consumption of energy-dense food and reduced physical activity levels are likely to be the main drivers. Previous cross-sectional research has shown that sedentary males, unlike their active counterparts, are unable to compensate for previous energy intake (EI). Using a longitudinal design a 6-week exercise intervention was found to improve short-term appetite control, leading to a more 'sensitive' eating behaviour in response to previous EI, both acutely at a test meal and for the next 24 h. Although the mechanisms whereby acute and chronic exercise improves short-term appetite remain unknown, post-ingestive satiety peptides are likely to be involved. Acute exercise was found to increase postprandial levels of polypeptide YY, glucagon-like peptide-1 and pancreatic polypeptide but to have no impact on ghrelin, suggesting that exercise can trigger physiological changes in satiety hormone secretion that could help in appetite control and weight maintenance. In the context of an increased availability of highly-palatable food, dietary restraint may be increasingly important. Although restraint has been associated with abnormal eating behaviour, in the laboratory no counter-regulation was found in restrained eaters when presented with a buffet meal 60 min after a high-energy preload or when a pasta-meal was presented 3 h after preloading. Although restraint was not found to impact on polypeptide YY or TAG, lower postprandial glucose and insulin plasma levels were observed in restrained eaters, together with increased feelings of fullness. In conclusion, short-term appetite control seems to be favourably modified by exercise, while the impact of restraint on appetite seems to be more complex.
complex complex complex

not single factor.

at the end of the article on getting happier with fatter, there's a reference to recent work that the diet/exercise debate is kinda missing the more pressing issue of why we eat - not just habit, but how habit is tied to homeostatis - like that pointed to above

see ghrelin is the hunger cue - we get it when we're hungy. but it's trainable.
likewise the cue for polypeptide YY - is a morning cue for carbs; later in the day ghrelin cues up a craving for fats/protein.

er it's so cool. we're so wired. it's so just not about the right diet or the right weight routine. not single factor stuff.

and that sorta makes sense. we're very complicated we can just about get the high level stuff right - like eat less; move more - plant sping' harvest fall - but the details can be challenging.

nite from the uk all
mc
 
MC

I think the path of least resistance rules all. Int he modern western world, It is easier to gain weight than lose it, and its easier to say I'm OK with this and do nothing.

Not only is being fat "no bodies fault", but its also acceptable for our children to be fat (we are a big family/big boned/large framed blah, i hear it daily). I am hard pressed to used Fat when Obese sounds accurate more often than not.

The greatest joke in the history of the world is happening right here, right now in our generation: For thousands of years hunger and famine destroyed civilizations and was feared above all, save disease. Now we are eating ourselves to death. As tremendous numbers of people starve to death in Africa right now, the western media works very hard to portray the average American who is 40-100lbs overweight as "Normal" who should be happy they have outgrown their clothes three times in a decade. Happy! that they have diabetes and are only 30 something. Happy!!! because that new diet is coming out next week! You now, the one were you only eat cake and drink prune juice.

I have no answers that are PC and my truthful answers are best left unsaid. I only hope every person takes responsibility for themself to at least keep their kids healthy until they are old enough to make a choice instead of forcing them to clean their plate or feeding them another happy meal.
 

NonStop

New member
MC

I think the path of least resistance rules all. Int he modern western world, It is easier to gain weight than lose it, and its easier to say I'm OK with this and do nothing.

Not only is being fat "no bodies fault", but its also acceptable for our children to be fat (we are a big family/big boned/large framed blah, i hear it daily). I am hard pressed to used Fat when Obese sounds accurate more often than not.

The greatest joke in the history of the world is happening right here, right now in our generation: For thousands of years hunger and famine destroyed civilizations and was feared above all, save disease. Now we are eating ourselves to death. As tremendous numbers of people starve to death in Africa right now, the western media works very hard to portray the average American who is 40-100lbs overweight as "Normal" who should be happy they have outgrown their clothes three times in a decade. Happy! that they have diabetes and are only 30 something. Happy!!! because that new diet is coming out next week! You now, the one were you only eat cake and drink prune juice.

I have no answers that are PC and my truthful answers are best left unsaid. I only hope every person takes responsibility for themself to at least keep their kids healthy until they are old enough to make a choice instead of forcing them to clean their plate or feeding them another happy meal.

Ditto. The western world generally makes me sick. Personally would love to hear your un-PC views. I've heard this from celebs interested in agrticulture, that rationing of a sought should be brought back. I agree, I think such rules should apply when other people are dying, and that bad foods should be severely rationed, especially for children. You can't really rely on most parents, as evidenced by the increase of obesity amongst children (both UK where I live and US).
 
I get it.......but it's still dumb

I have friends and family members that have fell into this trap of acceptance and complancency. Their argument is, "Well, I'm happy". They are happy in their spiritual life, marriage, job, etc. and they don't see the big deal about being 50+ pounds overweight.

I get it. I understand that everybody in the world isn't going to be like me. Not everybody cares if they can get 250 reps in the SSST. Not everyone is concerned if they can press the Beast while staying under 180 pounds or can push their car for a mile. Most people that are into "fitness" just want to be generally in shape and they will eat apple pie and ice cream every night because it's a comfort food and it makes them happy. Who cares if you haven't seen your feet for 10 years because your wife still loves you.

My problem is that my friends and family that are overweight TRULY don't realize how dangerous it is. They're shaving years off of their life. They might as well smoke or drink a case of beer a day, it's having the same effect on their bodies. I'm glad they're happy but their health and quality of life is suffering because they/we have come to accept heavier people as being normal.

What used to be taboo in this country is now everyday life and fat people are no exception. Booty shorts were unheard of the 1930s, vulgar language was never aired on television or radio in the 1950s, teen pregnancy used to be a big deal in the 1970s.....and now if you're not fat and lazy you're turning into the minority and people look at you like you're on drugs if you're seen actually doing something productive like sled dragging or tossing around a sandbag.

My kid's generation is the first to be expected to NOT outlive me. This is what our culture has produced and it's very sad. Does anybody have that quote from JFK back in the 1960s? I think it was posted on this Forum before. Basically it brought up the fact that kids are getting lazier, less active and eating crappier food and we need to turn it around before our nation becomes a bunch of slobs. Apparrantly nobody listened. Good topic.

Philip
 

DrJAG2

New member
Ditto. The western world generally makes me sick. Personally would love to hear your un-PC views. I've heard this from celebs interested in agrticulture, that rationing of a sought should be brought back. I agree, I think such rules should apply when other people are dying, and that bad foods should be severely rationed, especially for children. You can't really rely on most parents, as evidenced by the increase of obesity amongst children (both UK where I live and US).

I hope you're kidding. My family fled a government like you describe. I'd rather have the choice to be fat and stupid than be forced into starvation. Believe me, the Soviets did a good job of this (government-led starvation).

Life is about choices and personal responsibility. Hopefully you make good choices, but if you don't, it's nobody's fault but yours.

OBTW, starvation in Africa is not due to lack of food or the ability to grow it. It certainly is not about the lack of resources. Tanzania is one of the most resource-rich countries on earth. Hong Kong has no natural resources. One country is starving, the other one isn't. Zimbabwe used to feed half of Africa. No more.

Back to fat.......if you get your kids off their butts and feed them halfway decent diets, they won't get fat. You don't need studies by phds and such to figure that one out. Get the kids a bike instead of a NoFriendo game system (full disclosure: my 11 year old has a Nintendo DSi that he bought with the money from all the lawns he mowed in the heat this Summer because Daddy doesn't do dependency - he also swims and plays baseball 6 months of the year). Put them on a team. Make them cut the lawn and spread mulch (my boys spent 2 hours mulching the back yard gardens on Saturday for no pay other than a bed and three meals). Make them walk the dog a mile every day. One of the problems is that many parents are so wrapped up in their lives that they don't take the time to take care of themselves and set the example, and they don't take the time to spend with the kids moving.
 

BlackBeltMedic

New member
Adam, I agree. As far as your less-than-PC approach, I seriously believe that a great many people today need to be told the cold, harsh truth without any sympathy - and there's a sh**load of 'em out there. There's always going to people out there that need a little more of a push than others and that's fine. Genetics can be a hurdle and I get that too. Not everyone has the DNA to look like the personification of fitness. That does NOT mean that they cannot BE healthy and fit, though.

It just takes a little discipline and will power to get started and from there it becomes habit. It becomes easy. It's sad and frustrating that so many people see making general health and well being as such an inconvenience. Why take a few extra minutes to make a balanced, home cooked meal (seriously, it's not that hard at all) when you can get a greaseburger at from the nearest fast food joint - especially when you don't even have to get out of the car to get it? Aaaaaarrrrggghh.

I've always been active but my dietary policies in the past didn't always represent the best of choices. By and large, rarely did they do so. I made the change, however, and am glad I did. Seriously, it's not difficult to buy produce and not cupcakes. Tea, milk or water and not soda or beer. Fresh, lean meat and not fast food. Go out for a walk or bike ride (something, anything) instead of watching hour number 14 of American Idol or whatever other horrible reality TV shows are on this week. Granted, I only need to cook for myself but creating balanced, home cooked meals really is not a difficult or all that time consuming of a task. It's also cheaper. You would think that in these economic times that at least THAT would be some sort of incentive.
 

BlackBeltMedic

New member
My problem is that my friends and family that are overweight TRULY don't realize how dangerous it is. They're shaving years off of their life. They might as well smoke or drink a case of beer a day, it's having the same effect on their bodies.

This reminds me of my dad (nothing against him). Before he got re-married again he basically lived off of fast food, pizza, chips, soda, cookies and chocolate ice cream. Oh yeah.... this was after he had already had a heart attack!!! His arguement was that the doctor said it was brought on primarily by stress and that his numbers were OK. Of course, I let him know that there was absolutely no way that what he ate was not a contributing factor. Ignorance is bliss. Amazingly he never became overweight.

Part of the problem was being too lazy to actually prepare meals. This was by his own unappologetic admission. He simply found it easier to hit the drive thru window on the way home than cook a meal for himself and clean up afterwards. Nor did he pack a lunch to work so what do think happened with that every day?

I argued the point that he could have a 3 course meal nightly with little effort. It's called the George Foreman grill. (It really is great). Put the meat on, wait, take it off, eat it. Cleaning it is easy. Vegetables: open the can, put contents in bowl, put in microwave. Easy. I know... fresh would be better but it's better than nothing, right? Other simple, easy things like fruits and nuts could easily have been taken care of by preparing a lunch for work along with a sandwich or two.

Now that he's re-married again I'm sure he's on an at least somewhat better path. It's sad, though, that this is dependent upon always having someone there to do it for him. Again, I'm not knocking him on a personal level. However, he's one of millions with this outlook and it's just crazy. I can't do that to myself. I refuse to do that to myself.
 

mc

New member
I have friends and family members that have fell into this trap of acceptance and complancency. Their argument is, "Well, I'm happy". They are happy in their spiritual life, marriage, job, etc. and they don't see the big deal about being 50+ pounds overweight.

[..]
My problem is that my friends and family that are overweight TRULY don't realize how dangerous it is. They're shaving years off of their life. They might as well smoke or drink a case of beer a day, it's having the same effect on their bodies. I'm glad they're happy but their health and quality of life is suffering because they/we have come to accept heavier people as being normal.

What used to be taboo in this country is now everyday life and fat people are no exception. [..]
My kid's generation is the first to be expected to NOT outlive me. This is what our culture has produced and it's very sad. Does anybody have that quote from JFK back in the 1960s? I think it was posted on this Forum before. Basically it brought up the fact that kids are getting lazier, less active and eating crappier food and we need to turn it around before our nation becomes a bunch of slobs. Apparrantly nobody listened. Good topic.

Philip


yup

i hear you.

so what's changed? in terms of food, it seems to be access.

consider all the things that are about access that weren't in place commonly even 20 years ago
- ubiquitous cell phones
- ubiquitous internet
- even higher density of fast food outlets

so with these technologies (food access is part of a techno ecosystem) our expectations around feeding ourselves have changed too.

combine that with the simple fact that we are in fact wired to do what we're doing - store and hoard food in ourselves for survival, to use food to address most of our very simple chemical triggers well of course we're going to eat.

That folks here don't means
a) like you say you have a goal to be fit and well and have educated yourself and aligned yourself with that - hell, this is a FITNESS s&c forum, eh?
b) you've aligned your practice with that.

Other people as you note really don't get it. I sit down with phd students about this stuff who are so out of shape their bones would snap in my hands i swear. Young men who struggle to get a 16 overhead or swing for 20 secs. They don't know this stuff. How could they? where is it taught?

How many folks do you know in a real world context who could say yes i'm eating this carb rich food because my stress hormones are up and i'm responding reactively to that by giving myself fast sugar to flee.

walk a mile in someone else's shoes - it's amazing what lives folks have that are happy and full or sad and stressed and happy in cycles and seem to be really ok in blisful unawareness of health and fitness because nothing has made it real for them.

what is real is our wiring.
i think perhaps as soon as we in the fitness space get our heads aound the fact that people who are overwieght are not undisciplined - they starve themselves repeatedly for long intervals - and ask the question so if you can do that how come this isn't working? we might get furhter ahead.

we didn't evolve in an environment of abundance without physical effort and we're paying for that disconnect of living with such ready abundance and immediate access now.

sorta makes sense we'd be getting fatter, no?

eat less move more yes, i keep repeating myself. the fundamental principle is solid. and simple. the implementation is not. if it were all those diets would be working, wouldn't they?

we need a better model
mc
 

mc

New member
ps - we're the minority

i think most of the time we forget when surrounded by like minded souls here how in the minority we are.

65% of americans are now overweight/obese.

and more
A new report published in the Archives of Internal Medicine backs this up. According to the study, just 3 percent of us get the pyramid requirements completely right [(1) eat five servings of fruit/veg a day (2) don't smoke (3) exercise regularly (4) are at a healthy weight. -mc]

That sounds kind of minuscule. Here is a breakdown of what the study found:

  • 23 percent eat five servings of fruits and vegetables a day;

  • 22 percent exercise for at least 30 minutes daily;

  • 76 percent don’t smoke;

  • 40 percent maintain a healthy weight (25 or less body mass index).

so actually, according to more recent stats, in just two years, that 40% has dropped to 35%

So it's now actually a wee bit less than 3%
If you've arrived and you're part of the near 3% fantastic. but you're not normal or representative - statistically speaking.

That's what i mean by minority and that's why i mean we need a new model to support "eat less/move more" and it's not gonna be a new diet or a new exercise program, is it?

mc
 

mc

New member
Back to fat.......if you get your kids off their butts and feed them halfway decent diets, they won't get fat. You don't need studies by phds and such to figure that one out. Get the kids a bike instead of a NoFriendo game system (full disclosure: my 11 year old has a Nintendo DSi that he bought with the money from all the lawns he mowed in the heat this Summer because Daddy doesn't do dependency - he also swims and plays baseball 6 months of the year). Put them on a team. Make them cut the lawn and spread mulch (my boys spent 2 hours mulching the back yard gardens on Saturday for no pay other than a bed and three meals). Make them walk the dog a mile every day. One of the problems is that many parents are so wrapped up in their lives that they don't take the time to take care of themselves and set the example, and they don't take the time to spend with the kids moving.

it's great that you have the background, inclination and knowledge to offer your kids this experience, Jag, as well as modeling it for them in your own practice.

i don't know that other partents are all just too wrapped up etc.
maybe - we've all seen horror shows of disinterest

but i've also seen documentaries of moms who in cooking really didn't know about food or how to get good stuff and belive that they have the time and SKILLS to cook healthier for their family.

When they were shown this, and modelled it, and started to practice it, there were a lot of tears about the difference this made for their now happier and less hyper kids. It's not like they didn't want to offer their kids a healthy home. but where are the models?

We aren't born with skills; we need to learn 'em and practice them.

what seems obvious to us because of background or experience or personal passion started as learning something at some point, no? so how translate all this to folks who are busy trying to survive and for whom this other stuff is the luxury of a foreign land, terra incognita.

mc
 

Ideal Paradigm

New member
That reminds me of a thing I learned in Psychology called "the curse of knowledge". Many people who are well versed in a subject, or some sort of trade think it very obvious that others should know the same. VCRs aren't really in my generation (maybe when I was younger than 13-14), but the reason why so many people had difficulty setting the clock, etc. on them was because the creators thought it was blatantly obvious how to operate them. This was indeed not the case, I'm sure that cooking, exercising, and teaching skills is no different.

Hence, the reason why teaching in of itself is such a skill. You have to know how to break things down so that different people can integrate them in different ways.
 

Ideal Paradigm

New member
Now that he's re-married again I'm sure he's on an at least somewhat better path. It's sad, though, that this is dependent upon always having someone there to do it for him. Again, I'm not knocking him on a personal level. However, he's one of millions with this outlook and it's just crazy. I can't do that to myself. I refuse to do that to myself.

I personally know a friend who's parents have a similar outlook. They believe that if your'e going to die anyways, you might as well just eat whatever you want. When I got into the Exercise Physiology community I started giving them advice about eating right and the need to exercise. They just wouldn't believe me because I was younger than they are, and they had the whole "I'm-older-than-you-by-default-I-know-more-than-you". Now, if I were addressing life issues or something like that, then yes, it usually would be true. But I'm getting a formal education at a well known university and I have at the very least a gist of what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, my friend's mother just had a heart attack, and she's in my prayers.

If anyone reads this thread, and there's one thing they take away, it's manage your health. Prevention is always better than recovery, always.
 

DrJAG2

New member
it's great that you have the background, inclination and knowledge to offer your kids this experience, Jag, as well as modeling it for them in your own practice.

i don't know that other partents are all just too wrapped up etc.
maybe - we've all seen horror shows of disinterest

but i've also seen documentaries of moms who in cooking really didn't know about food or how to get good stuff and belive that they have the time and SKILLS to cook healthier for their family.

When they were shown this, and modelled it, and started to practice it, there were a lot of tears about the difference this made for their now happier and less hyper kids. It's not like they didn't want to offer their kids a healthy home. but where are the models?

We aren't born with skills; we need to learn 'em and practice them.

what seems obvious to us because of background or experience or personal passion started as learning something at some point, no? so how translate all this to folks who are busy trying to survive and for whom this other stuff is the luxury of a foreign land, terra incognita.

mc

I guess there's a point where you can claim ignorance, but I grew up the kid of two people who were raised in Appalachia where fried chicken was a staple food and stuff like bacon was on the table next to pigs' brains, pigs' feet, etc. (it's all edible but the oink!). I can recall my wife being appalled at seeing my mother saving fat from frying bacon for cooking. I saw the obesity epidemic in both sides of the family and decided it was not for me. Yep, I had to figure it out on my own. That said, I'm all for educating the masses on better eating and exercise; however, I live in one of the most affluent, educated areas in the world (Northern VA), and the epidemic is running strong here.
 

scors50

New member
I agree with much of what is being said here . This is also why I really disliked the original TIME article--I think a cursory reading (which is all most people will do--usually sitting in a hair salon or doctor's office) will give those who are not moving enough or at all a psuedo justification for continuing to remain physically inert, since it "won't make you thin" to exercise.

We need to also fully acknowledge the role the media and corporate interests play in all of this, though. We complain that it is "bad parenting" to let kids eat badly etc. But lets look at cost--try shoppng here in the US at a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's and only buying the best groceries. Tell me what the bill is for a week's worth of groceries. Then calculate the amount for happy meals and the like every day of the week. The fast food crap is WAY cheaper. Now--let's factor in work realities. Say we have a single mom, with 2 jobs and just enough time to get to her kids , get them fed and off to job 2. Does she have time to cook? Take a look at most of the marketing for fast food chains--who's being targeted? Upper middle class suburban families? I don't think so.

There is a have/have not aspect to all of this and, at the risk of sounding like some sort of socialist, which I am not at all, I think it is short sighted for anyone to assume that the entire problem lies solely with the individual. Once you make healthy, organic food available at a price tag the average family can afford,put limits on fast food advertising (hell, they can't show anyone actually consuming alcohol on TV anymore and cigarette ads not at all) since they pose a tremendous health risk, you will have half the battle won.

Another part of this is education. I teach high school and have for 27 years. The health curriculum in NY State has an entire unit on nutrition. Kids ARE getting the info. But mom and dad need to be educated as well. The sugary drink and candy machines that athletic teams in many cases use as fund raisers (how ironic is that?) need to be banned. Finally, Phys ed programs have to stop being about trying to find another running back for the football program or pitcher for the softball team and become all about personal fitness, something even the athletes could use. Not everyone is going to play a team sport--in fact, most NEVER will and have no interest. But everyone owns a body and needs to know how to take care of it.

Maybe, on a national level, we need to re-emphasize the old President's Council on Physical Fitness and put a high profile person in charge of it. I remember when I was in high school, we had to take and pass the President's Council Physical Fitness test (pullups, pushups, situps,shuttle run, 600 yard run). We actually established clubs and teams and there was a huge competition officiated by members of the Marine Corps in Washington DC. We don't see much, if any, of that in our Phys Ed classes any more.

I saw a political ad the other day on TV. It said, in effect "In these tough economic times, the last thing we need is for the government to tax our little remaining pleasures like fruit juices and soft drinks".This was in response to the idea of taxing these as a disincentive, much the same as cigarettes. What's the message? Yes, it's a counter to government "sin" tax politically,and we can probably all get behind a "no more taxes" message, but the psychological subtext is "hey--you're depressed,times are hard have some sugary crap to make you feel better". If I substituted "have a few beers" or "have a smoke or two" or "light up a joint" for "sugary crap", I don't think it would be aired.

There are many players involved here who need to be held to account and step to to the plate. The "individual" is but one of these. We've been a nation of overconsumers since the end of WWII, and the only reason we didn't overconsume from 1929-1950 was because the Great Depression stopped us for the first half of that and the government ,through enforced rationing, stopped us during the second, to fuel the war effort. If you look at the period right before the crash,the "Roaring 20s" it was overconsumption as well which,in fact, in may ways, that lead to the crash and the Depression.

Culturally, we have never been a country of "as much as I need" we have been, unfortunately"as much as I can get". The same holds with our food. Why eat enough when I can actually get "supersized".

If anyone is interested, Andrew Bacevic's The Limits of Power is a very compelling read on the entire cultural aspect of this in the US. He is a Catholic conservative who graduated from West Point and served in Vietnam and the Persian Gulf and is currently a professor of international relations at B.U. He is to the point, succinct, and , I feel, accurately holds everyone who should be held accountable for much of our long held notions on this front. Our current diet/health/obesity issues are, I think, just an outward, physical manifestation of a far greater cultural mindset that needs to be addressed. We have confused our historical insistence on personal freedom, which has made this country great, with some sort of entitlement to overdo it despite the consequences--for us and our kids. That whole mindset is in severe need of re-orientation, I think.
 

vinceh4

New member
... I live in one of the most affluent, educated areas in the world (Northern VA), and the epidemic is running strong here.

I believe a major problem to be the fitness culture (including the diet facet) and its carry over into the media, medicine and even the government. Fitness culture is relatively new within western society; it began in the 70s. Before that, people mainly "trained" for sport.

Since then, society as a whole has seen claim after claim for general fitness and diet, change and contradict itself repeatedly, with eroneous advice andmyths being touted or debunked, then embraced again in another form extending all the way up even official chains such as medical and government agencies.

Transfats once were the healthy alternative to real fats. Oops, not any more. Some may have remembered the Nautalis craze and the Mentzer mentality that surrounded it. They bought into it and got nothing for those membership fees and "work" (even if it were valid, the average person does not have the intensity).

Free weights were dangerous, no machines are, no wait again... high volume, low intensity or heay, once a week and high intensity :confused: Low carb high carb, walking a little every day is enough or an hour a day of intense excercise every day and on and on ad nauseum. It is the medical community that has hurt the worst, imo. This trusted source has sanctioned and flipped flopped several times on recomendations.

This helps to create an enviroment where fads, myths, and rumors flourish. Hell, this culture cannot even agree on what fitness is. It is a sea of misinformation for the most part, and finding any info that is knowledgeable is difficult, and can you even trust it if you do find it?

People are not going to invest time, sweat and money into something that they assume going into, has a 75% chance of being a load of crap at best, to actually being injurous or worse. THIS is the reason people want the quick fix.

They want to see whether it's bs or not. It is few who are exposed to this "culture" that will be patient and put in hard work .....
.....because it has been hardwired into their brain that there is a strong chance that what they are doing may actually be of little benefit, and fitness takes an investment mentally, emtionally, time wise and in many cases, financially.
 
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xafier

New member
There are three questions that need answers, and the simple answers are well... simple...

1) What should we eat? .... What did humans eat before the modern world? Whole foods, fruit, veg, meat, nuts, seeds... no processed foods!

2) How often / how should I exercise? .... Primal man hunted, so he ran and he walked, he climbed and he jumped... and he did this most of the day... so how much exercise? As much as you can! What exercise? Well plenty of walking would be a start! Do some climbing? Some ballistic exercises to immitate fight or flight situations man used to face

3) How much should you eat? ... enough to fuel a healthy weight and the amount you exercise, little more, and no less
 

Wild Pegasus

New member
I agree with much of what is being said here . This is also why I really disliked the original TIME article--I think a cursory reading (which is all most people will do--usually sitting in a hair salon or doctor's office) will give those who are not moving enough or at all a psuedo justification for continuing to remain physically inert, since it "won't make you thin" to exercise.

Government and health orgs have been giving bad advice to people for decades, just to be seen doing something. Good Calories, Bad Calories details the sordid history of public pronouncements on diet and exercise, how shoddy science was used so self-important folks could look busy.

It's much better to tell people the truth and trust them to make the decisions they think are best. In this case, the public needs to be told that exercise will not make them thin. Will some folks stop exercising? Yes. Will others realize that they can't eat a blueberry muffin after the treadmill? Yes.

We need to also fully acknowledge the role the media and corporate interests play in all of this, though. We complain that it is "bad parenting" to let kids eat badly etc. But lets look at cost--try shoppng here in the US at a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's and only buying the best groceries. Tell me what the bill is for a week's worth of groceries. Then calculate the amount for happy meals and the like every day of the week. The fast food crap is WAY cheaper. Now--let's factor in work realities. Say we have a single mom, with 2 jobs and just enough time to get to her kids , get them fed and off to job 2. Does she have time to cook? Take a look at most of the marketing for fast food chains--who's being targeted? Upper middle class suburban families? I don't think so.

This is true. Interestingly enough, the boom in childhood obesity tracks the boom of the single-parent family. I doubt that's a coincidence: single parents rarely have the time to cook good food. They probably also have less energy and time to spend on enforcing good diets.

It's also true that the factory farm/agribusiness model is heavily subsidized, both through direct cash payments and through favorable regulation. Corn and soy, fine in modest amounts, pollute everything on the store shelf, thanks to the massive subsidies they enjoy.

Once you make healthy, organic food available at a price tag the average family can afford,put limits on fast food advertising (hell, they can't show anyone actually consuming alcohol on TV anymore and cigarette ads not at all) since they pose a tremendous health risk, you will have half the battle won.

Fast-food companies have the right to purchase advertising time, as do alcohol and cigarette companies. No one is forced to smoke, drink, or eat badly because of someone on TV.
 

mc

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just wanted to say thanks for putting in your well considered thoughts on this one, all, and taking the time to reflect on this stuff. it's a pleasure to have this space to chat with y'all

Jag, i gotta come back to you, dude: you're a driven guy: you're likely one of the first guys in your family with a uni degree too, right? so you broke away.

I say again you are in the minority. You are a shining beacon of light as an example of what is possible, but also plainly had some other stuff working for you to make that drive convert into the man you are today with all the assets you have.

score50, i hear you about teaching. And that there's nutrition stuff in schools - that's great there isn't in the uk. But in the UK a great private citizen experiment showed that not only do meals at school need to change, but that has to go home with the kids too. And it has to be useful, usable to fit into the behaviour mode, don't you think?

See i've got this drum and i'm gonna bang on it:
it's not just about the diet or the exercise is it really?

it's also surely about the behaviour.
habits are f'ing hard to change - and near impossible without a whole lot of support and self-support around how to make that happen.

we know more about why they're hard to change and why new stuff takes time to come in.

i say again: this group is the minority.
we few we happy few.

and that makes it hard, as ideal paradigm points out, not to design a crappy vcr control panel that only a few geeks find obvious to use

we know how we did it, dam it.
ask score50 how well that translates to a room full of semi-motivated students?

mc
 
MC is correct about the minority. Lets examine our culture

The whole fat/skinny love-hate relationship of Americans and our weight is the only logical conclusion based on other trends in our society (being a crazy person, this makes perfect sense).

In our movies and film, nudity will automatically get a movie an "R" rating, swear words and violence will not. Only when it exceeds the required levels of gore and F bombs will it achieve R status. We censor sex and at the exact same moment we are absolutely obsessed with it in all forms, as easily spotted in EVERY advertisement and media. We tell our kids don’t do drugs, than buy them music albums with musicians glorifying drugs in all forms. We feed our kids a steady diet of Pro-Wrestling/UFC/and violent cartoons, then whimper because Johnny can’t play nice at school and is anti-social (pills will be the logical solution at that point).
The “horror” film genre had almost died off in this country until the rise of these slasher/snuff films that push you to your limits of how much filth and violence will you stomach before you leave the theater. Hostel anyone? When I saw hostel, a family of 5 sat directly behind me in the next row. Man it was disturbing to have little Johnny (my estimate age 7) and Suzy (MAYBE 5) staring in awe and horror at a film about chopping people up when they can’t even tell you when country “Europe” is in. Most entertaining was at the end of the film, when little Johnny dropped an F bomb and mom sternly said "Who said you can talk like that!" Opps, i figured he is smart enough to figure out what is good and bad with that solid parenting! Dumb me.

I will never reproduce, least I become worse than the parents I see day to day.

Fitness? The ball is too far off center. I observe standard practice for every magazine on the stands is to air brush and “touch up” every persons photo before it hits the stands. God save us if we have any real clue that we are not all beautiful! So in this world, I see a generation of people who took path of least resistance “I will never look like Jessica Alba (random name, pick who you choose) so screw it” I heard that WORD for WORD at a restaurant not even 3 days ago. By the way, did you know they have to “touch up” her pics too? I guess she is not pretty enough as is for the media machine.

What is “Fitness??” Is it Ronny Coleman? Is it Michael Phelps? Bruce Lee? GSP? What do those people have in common to the Average American? Nothing. Those are Champions who are extremist. The average man or women who works 50+ hours a week and takes care of the Family would not fare well emulating their program. BUT….People cannot seem to wrap the concept of moderate in to the vocabulary. We are either ALL GO, or no go. People sign up for the gym every year first week of January (after their hang off subsides from the extreme binge partying/drinking of Christmas to New Years) and they “get serious” this year. They hit the gym every day for two to three weeks. During those times, they hit it HARD. Two hours of weights, one hour on the bike. No suger, no candy, no food, no sleep, more bike! now some tread mill!!! How about 50 rounds of TINA and SUZZY!! I Saw it on this website it was awesome!! I puked 4 times! I need More reps, than forced reps, afterwards drop sets and finish with giant triple drop agony sets!!!!!
Than….they quit. And get fatter. We are incapable of moderation. Not happening. Eat less/More move. Sounds like a very solid plan which will work. Sounds like it will fail too, because it involves moderation. A very foreign word to our modern ears. Speaking of Ears--we only have one ear left, the other one has a piece of blue glowing plastic in it. We are all wondering looking like lost Air traffic Controllers and having important business meetings in the Milk + cheese isle.

I am disappointed by that too.

ATG OUT
 
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